What would you have done?

[Ravingdork]

Whoah! Lots of replies! Thanks all!

Hmm, the honest truth? I would have rolled an optimized party. Polearms and no shields on both defenders? a human ranger dual wielding? and a gnome brutal rogue. Ok, I always advocate that rule of play what you want, but I will admit that your party make up did in fact have something to do with it.

What's wrong with polearm defenders and human TWF rangers? In any case, my gnome rogue was multiclassed into wizard for some blasting potential and we had a Gnoll Warlord for healing too. Sadly, our warlord got eaten by the Blue Ooze and so I didn't feel a need to mention her for this scenario. (I could still hear her death rattle upon closing the doors! )

How to brake the lock and run away:
* PCs at E7 and E8 use an Aid Attack action on Ooze Jr, giving the PC at E6 +4 on his next attack.
* E6 then bull rushes it with a +4 bonus, because he has legal squares to push it to: from CD-78 to CD-89. He then moves himself to square D7.
* PC at E5 uses a readied move action to move to B7 to prevent further trapping.

That's a nice plan, had there been any legal squares to bull rush them to.

I thought the X was something you couldn't move through.

Also you cannot ready a move action[iirc].

The X's mark squares we could not, or did not want to move to. Also, you can ready a move action.

I'd have negotiated with the oozes, since they're obviously not the typical eating machines you'd expect, or they wouldn't be using treasure to set up ambushes and working in concert with small fuzzy globs of food (i.e. dire rats).

I'm assuming the goblins in the dungeon set up the treasure trap. Also, several of the rats were eaten by the oozes. The problem was that the rats were too frightened to attack the oozes, but the oozes retaliated against US more than they ate the rats cause we kept attacking them.

If this is the Keep on the Shadowfell encounter, its heavily modified.

It may have been modified (it was KOTS). There was water involved, I just didn't think it important enough to bring up.

You're assuming that Raven wasn't just being a little loose with his language. I'd probably refer to them as dire rats too, unless I happened to check back in the monster manual and notice that "dire rats" are a separate thing. (Which i didn't, until your comment.)

There...are...different...rats...? We just called them R.O.U.L.S. It was never clear what kind they were (we players just assumed they were dire rats and the GM, just went along with it.

An Ochre Jelly can only split when it is first bloodied during the encounter so if the DM split it on his own to trap you guys than he either made a DM decision to tweak the encounter that then killed everyone or he messed up. If it was bloodied by your team and then split each half would only have, at most, 25ish hit points.

We bloodied it in the first couple of rounds (when we were fleeing out of the lair), but missed a whole lot after it split (natural 1s and such). Also, I strongly suspect the GM was tracking the HP wrong (I don't think he divided the HP after the split, so instead of 25/25, it was more like 50/50--he kept insisting that the stats of the Jr were identical to the Sr.).

If he also intentionally placed the rats in such a way to prevent escape, and then left them there to do no other action other than keep the Jellies from being bullrushed than that is some impressive tactical combat out of some of the lowest intelligent creatures.

We are all still learning the rules. Our GM likely didn't even consider such complex tactics as bull rushing at all before we looked them up in our desperate bid to escape this fiasco. He was likely just using very simple monster gang-rape rush tactics.

The whole thing screams out that the DM was treating the encounter as a player versus player tactical minature game and trying to win the game.

We missed a lot, so he probably fudged a few rolls himself to help us out (he's that kind of GM).

Your best bet is to have the Gnome (because he is small) try and make it to the other side of the Jellies so he can move the rats out of position to enable a bull rush.

Small vs Large isn't a big enough difference to move through their squares...is it?

(1) Why didn't anyone try to jump over the oozes? Assuming someone was trained in Athletics, they would only need a 21 or so to make the jump as a move action. Sure, they suffer an OA, but really - better that than death. (Note - on reflection, this is assuming your DM would allow something like this. I suppose technically you can't move through a foe, but it's a freaking floor-crawling ooze, so I'd allow it, myself. )

If we could just move through monsters spaces with a simple Athletics check, what would be the point of all those fancy mobility powers? Allowing such a thing sounds like it could cause problems later on. (Front line smont line! I jump over them and kill the wizard leader!)

(3) Did the dragonborn have his breath? He could have fried at least 2 of the rats if so.

He used it to kill a bunch of rats before we ever encoutnered the oozes.

Specifically, I think the dire rats are acting a bit too intelligently!

They were darting in and out trying to get their share of the meal without being eaten. The problem was that when opportunities to bull rush the oozes popped up (thanks to an opening from the rats) we either still couldn't do it on account of the initiative order messing it up or my gnome being the only one who could do it (IF she weren't small).

Really, if the DM is playing them like animals, they should probably either have gotten the heck out of there and waited for scraps, or else rushed forward to attack the PCs through the corners. It's clear that they set themselves up as push-blockers, which is just not ratlike at all.

You can't move diagonally through corners, no matter your size. Again, I don't belive the GM deliberately set the rats as blockers on purpose. He's just not that smart.

 

[Starbuck_II]

I wouldn't have retreated forward.

Looking at this situation, you decided to run away from a threat that was able to hurt you, and in doing so you ran forward into unknown territory.

Retreating Forward = Bad Tactics.

The pain you felt afterwards is simply you learning the lesson of that very true statement. Encounters tend to get harder as you go deeper, not easier.

To be fair, don't they always retreat further in the movies? They also always die in those movies... so guess that explains why it is bad tactics.

 

[Obryn]

I wouldn't have retreated forward.

Looking at this situation, you decided to run away from a threat that was able to hurt you, and in doing so you ran forward into unknown territory.

Retreating Forward = Bad Tactics.

The pain you felt afterwards is simply you learning the lesson of that very true statement. Encounters tend to get harder as you go deeper, not easier.

Actually, it's the opposite.

You need to move through the Ochre Jelly room to get to the Blue Slime room.

-O

 

[Khime]

There...are...different...rats...? We just called them R.O.U.L.S. It was never clear what kind they were (we players just assumed they were dire rats and the GM, just went along with it.

Ah, that explains that part. For future ref, a DC 15 Nature Monster Knowledge check (no action required, either you know or you don't) should have given you their name.

Small vs Large isn't a big enough difference to move through their squares...is it?

PHB p283, MOVING THROUGH OCCUPIED SQUARES: Enemy: You normally can't move through an enemy's space unless that enemy is helpless or two size categories largeror smaller than you.

Small->Medium->Large = Two size categories between Gnome and Jelly.

 

[Obryn]

Small vs Large isn't a big enough difference to move through their squares...is it?

Yep, it actually is. Two size categories, per PHB pg. 283

If we could just move through monsters spaces with a simple Athletics check, what would be the point of all those fancy mobility powers? Allowing such a thing sounds like it could cause problems later on. (Front line smont line! I jump over them and kill the wizard leader!)

Like I said, this was situational given that it's an ochre jelly and not something like a zombie. When a monster is a pool of goo, a DM can make rulings like that.

You can't move diagonally through corners, no matter your size. Again, I don't belive the GM deliberately set the rats as blockers on purpose. He's just not that smart.

Rats don't need to move through corners. They can still attack through them just fine - and unlike in 3e, there's no cover for these corner attacks.

-O

 

[Cadfan]

Alright, here's a full explanation of the encounter from KotS, as its written.

[sblock]The first room has rough floors with stalactites and stalagmites. There are rats everywhere. They are low level minion rats, and will not attack unless they can nail an isolated target. In another corner of the room is the ochre jelly. The jelly is the big predator here, and the rats feast on whatever is left behind. The rats stay away from the jelly.

When the players enter the room, the rats hide, but the players can hear them and find them if they really want. Most players won't bother. They move through the room, eventually triggering the jelly. During the fight with the jelly, the rats will attack anyone who's weak or alone.

This fight is a balanced encounter for the pcs level. The ochre jelly is an elite, but the rats are just minions. Even the cover they get from the rough stone doesn't help them much.

After this fight, they go into the next room. Its down a hall a bit. In this room is a pool of water, with an island. The island has treasure! Yay treasure! But the pool is a cistern and its like 10 feet deep. If you touch the water, you awaken the lurking Blue Slime, which is a big, very obnoxious solo monster. This fight is tougher but doable. There's an entire explanation for why there's treasure on the island with a slime in the water, but the OP doesn't know this explanation because you learn it from notes found amongst the treasure on the island, and his party never got that far.

What must have happened to the OPs party is this: they probably slipped past the ochre jelly without awaking it. I do believe this is technically possible. Then they must have fought the slime, and run away from it after they lost the warlord. As they returned back up the path, wounded, they woke the ochre jelly who then proceeded to devour them.

The DM might have made a mistake by having the rats fight with too much coordination with the slime. They should stay back from it, and fight lone foes.

In my opinion the DM made a mistake by permitting the party to get by the jelly without fighting it- technically its possible, but really its only possible by accident, and I would have stopped this from occuring had I been running the game. Its no fun to miss a fight because, whoops! Walked right by and didn't see the bad guy! But this isn't a literal mistake on the DM's part, because that's just my estimation of what I would have done in his place. He probably wasn't running the module wrong or anything.

My own party, which included a human fighter with a maul, an elven ranger with two bastard swords, a tiefling orb wizard, a human rapier/strength rogue, and an elven laser cleric, was able to win both encounters. They were level 3 at the time.[/sblock]

 

[OSD]

My players would have easily gotten out of this, then again, they are a creative lot.

First
Ask for description of the Jelly (minor perception if the DM demands it)
Nature check - for any potential information.
(It's a large cube)

A) Throw the gnome over cube (Athletic), OA
B) Gnome run provoking OA
C) Vault the gnome over with the polearm dragonborn (Athletic), OA
D) Dragonborn does a vaulting jump, sacrificing his polearm. (Athletic) , OA
E) Acrobatic Stunt (DC 24 maybe with the distance )
F) Have the gnome or whoever else is light to climb on top of one of the fighters (endurance check) and then tries to jump over (athletic check, acrobatic check for landing). Or have them tie a rope if there's something on the ceiling and do a jumping climb check (repelling)
G) Feed the Jelly one of your rations after everyone stops attacking for a few round (total defense) and then throw another one at one of the rats. (Ochre Jelly relies on instinct. It tasted the food -ration-, and goes after the other one . Information that the party would know if they did a nature check)
Since it's so stupid, pray that it goes after the ration and the rat while it's at it.
H) Use your environment. Does the ceiling have nooks? Would a grappling hook reach it? How high is the ceiling? What are the Xs? Can they be climbed? Is the floor bare? Does it have vegetation? Does anyone have oil (for the latern)? Does anyone have an ability to prone one of the jellies? (Just "throw" someone on top of the prone jelly, no OA since it's a "forced" movement. Then it can't get up! The person then can become a stepping stone for everyone else!).

There are probably a lot of way to get out. All it takes is a little imagination instead "Power A to Target B" or "Run!"

 

[James McMurray]

I wouldn't have retreated forward.

Looking at this situation, you decided to run away from a threat that was able to hurt you, and in doing so you ran forward into unknown territory.

That's not what they did, at least it isn't mentioned here.

 

[Ravingdork]

Yep, it actually is. Two size categories, per PHB pg. 283

I must still be stuck in the v3.5 days. Knowing that would have made all the difference (a flanking rogue KILLS OOZES DEAD!).

Rats don't need to move through corners. They can still attack through them just fine - and unlike in 3e, there's no cover for these corner attacks.

Good point. and I think the rats wer attacking through the corners at various points.

Alright, here's a full explanation of the encounter from KotS, as its written.

THANK YOU! I always wondered if our GM deviated.

[sblock=My replies in RED]The first room has rough floors with stalactites and stalagmites. There are rats everywhere. They are low level minion rats, and will not attack unless they can nail an isolated target. In another corner of the room is the ochre jelly. The jelly is the big predator here, and the rats feast on whatever is left behind. The rats stay away from the jelly.

THEY WERE MINION RATS!? I'm almost certain they didn't die in one hit. They also weren't cowardly at all. They openly attacked our entire party (springing from the ceiling like vampire bats!) the moment we entered the stalagmite room. They seemed fearful of the oozes, but they seemed more hungry for us than fearful of them.

When the players enter the room, the rats hide, but the players can hear them and find them if they really want. Most players won't bother. They move through the room, eventually triggering the jelly. During the fight with the jelly, the rats will attack anyone who's weak or alone.

We fought our way through the rats and didn't see heads or tales of that damned ooze. I was under the impression it heard all the fighting and screamig and came from another room further into the module.

After this fight, they go into the next room. Its down a hall a bit. In this room is a pool of water, with an island. The island has treasure! Yay treasure! But the pool is a cistern and its like 10 feet deep. If you touch the water, you awaken the lurking Blue Slime...

GM got that right. Thing didn't pop up until the Gnoll tried to swim across. The room was down the hall though? It didn't seem but a few squares away. It seemed to be like a "T" shaped area, where the left top was the rat lair, the bottom room was the blue ooze lair, and the top right was unexplored areas (where I presumed the new ooze came from).

...which is a big, very obnoxious solo monster. This fight is tougher but doable. There's an entire explanation for why there's treasure on the island with a slime in the water, but the OP doesn't know this explanation because you learn it from notes found amongst the treasure on the island, and his party never got that far.

Thank you for your discression.

What must have happened to the OPs party is this: they probably slipped past the ochre jelly without awaking it. I do believe this is technically possible. Then they must have fought the slime, and run away from it after they lost the warlord. As they returned back up the path, wounded, they woke the ochre jelly who then proceeded to devour them.

I think maybe the GM moved the Ochre Jelly into another room, cause we didn't see it anywhere near the rats until AFTER we encountered Bubba-Blue. I don't see how we could possibly have walked past something that big and obvious (especially since we had already fought a pair of gelatinous cubes at this point--we were on the lookout for oozes). Also, I don't think oozes sleep. They are like jellyfish: They eat, move about, and reproduce. Taht's about it.

The DM might have made a mistake by having the rats fight with too much coordination with the slime. They should stay back from it, and fight lone foes.

They were risking getting eaten to get at us!

In my opinion the DM made a mistake by permitting the party to get by the jelly without fighting it- technically its possible, but really its only possible by accident, and I would have stopped this from occuring had I been running the game. Its no fun to miss a fight because, whoops! Walked right by and didn't see the bad guy! But this isn't a literal mistake on the DM's part, because that's just my estimation of what I would have done in his place. He probably wasn't running the module wrong or anything.

Our GM tends to do two things if my observations are accurate: 1) He runs the module wrong to begin with or 2) He changes it enough that their is no point in having bought the module in the first place.

My own party, which included a human fighter with a maul, an elven ranger with two bastard swords, a tiefling orb wizard, a human rapier/strength rogue, and an elven laser cleric, was able to win both encounters. They were level 3 at the time.

We were only level 2.[/sblock]

Ask for description of the Jelly (minor perception if the DM demands it)
Nature check - for any potential information.
(It's a large cube)

Our GM isn't very forthcoming with the knowledge checks. He hates having to pull out the Monster Manual to look it up (having to open the book kind of defeats the point of having the stat block directly in the module). He does tell us stuff, he just hates doing it.

A) Throw the gnome over cube (Athletic), OA
B) Gnome run provoking OA
C) Vault the gnome over with the polearm dragonborn (Athletic), OA
D) Dragonborn does a vaulting jump, sacrificing his polearm. (Athletic) , OA
E) Acrobatic Stunt (DC 24 maybe with the distance )
F) Have the gnome or whoever else is light to climb on top of one of the fighters (endurance check) and then tries to jump over (athletic check, acrobatic check for landing). Or have them tie a rope if there's something on the ceiling and do a jumping climb check (repelling)
G) Feed the Jelly one of your rations after everyone stops attacking for a few round (total defense) and then throw another one at one of the rats. (Ochre Jelly relies on instinct. It tasted the food -ration-, and goes after the other one . Information that the party would know if they did a nature check)
Since it's so stupid, pray that it goes after the ration and the rat while it's at it.
H) Use your environment. Does the ceiling have nooks? Would a grappling hook reach it? How high is the ceiling? What are the Xs? Can they be climbed? Is the floor bare? Does it have vegetation? Does anyone have oil (for the latern)? Does anyone have an ability to prone one of the jellies? (Just "throw" someone on top of the prone jelly, no OA since it's a "forced" movement. Then it can't get up! The person then can become a stepping stone for everyone else!).

Good ideas all.

There are probably a lot of way to get out. All it takes is a little imagination instead "Power A to Target B" or "Run!"

I fear that with the advent of 4E, my fellow players are getting into the "if it isn't on our sheet we can't do it" line of thinking. They didn't even know full defense, aid another, and bull rush were things their characters could do until I brought it up in hopes of escaping this mess (and these our veteran v3.0/v3.5 players!).

That's not what they did, at least it isn't mentioned here.

We didn't really get the opportunity to retreat forward or backward. We exited the lair and were immedietly stopped by a new ooze.

 

[Wolfwood2]

We bloodied it in the first couple of rounds (when we were fleeing out of the lair), but missed a whole lot after it split (natural 1s and such). Also, I strongly suspect the GM was tracking the HP wrong (I don't think he divided the HP after the split, so instead of 25/25, it was more like 50/50--he kept insisting that the stats of the Jr were identical to the Sr.).

Your GM was right. The stat block says that the two jellies are identical and you do not divide hitpoints after they split. So if a hit brings the opchre jelly down to 49 hitpoints and it splits, then each of the jellies has 49 hitpoints after the split. The reason for this is that the jelly is an elite monster, so allowing it to act as two monsters after it is bloodied is the sort of thing that is supposed to happen. 25/25 would have been ridiculously easy to take down.

I actually ran this encounter for my players last night, so I know whereof I speak. They wiped up the ochre jelly quickly enough. No need to make things even easier.