Flavour First vs Game First - a comparison

The mechanics simulate nothing outside of the game itself. You just choose to pretend that they do.
The mechanics simulate nothing full stop. Like the saving throw mechanics in 1st ed AD&D. They certainly do not simulate the game. They are (a part of) the game.

As to pretending - I don't see that as objectionable. The fundamental step in playing an RPG is pretending that something is the case in an imaginary world (indeed, some people regard this as the paradigm of roleplaying, that distinguishes an RPG from a boardgame).

In the case of 4e's hp/healing surge mechanics, they establish certain constraints on the what can be pretended to be the case in the imaginary world.

Therein lies the flaw in your argument : you assume that a game mechanic must either directly simulate some element of the game world or serve no other purpose than as a game play construct. Mechanics can also serve to reinforce the ongoing narrative without necessarily being directly reflective of the physics of a game world.
Agreed. As Lost Soul has repeatedly pointed ouot, the hp/healing surge mechanics establish certain constraints on what can (consistently with the rules of the game) be pretended to be the case in the imaginary world.

The objective in-game meaning of the mechanic should mesh well enough with the flavour so that no subjective DM narration is required to explain it
And that's the crux of the disagreement. Some players want mechanics that deliver the story. Others want mechanics that set the parameters for the story. 4e will not do the first job. (In my view neither did earlier versions of D&D, but they often didn't do the second job all that well either, or at least often weren't very clear about it. But that's a different matter.)

I think HP have changed more than just in a quantitative fashion compared with earlier editions. The quantitative changes (healing surges and heal all damage overnight) have IMO created a definite qualitative difference in how they relate to game-world events. You are never truly injured in a way that resembles any form of reality that we are used to. This doesnt mean earlier editions were great at this but there was a closer connection between hps and physical damage to the character.
I think earlier editions had problems (eg the Cure spells, as has been noted repeatedly in this thread). I agree also that 4e is qualitatively different in embracing the non-simulationist character of the hp mechanic.

I would have rathered them go full bore narrativist and be more similar to somethign like TSOY. Since HP have only a small overlap to real in-game meaning to physical damage, many things should result in HP damage as it is now a gamist/story mechanic and not really an game-world mapping injury mechanic. HP are now gamist/narrativist mechanics which really only determine how long your character can partake in the adventure. All failures in conflicts should end up doing HP damage making skill checks far more tension filled. Of course this might totally throw them off their design goals and many would not like this direction.
I think 4e mixes slightly different mechanics together - intricate combat mechanics with comparatively rules-light mechanics for other conflicts. As hp belong to the former, it wouldn't fit with the current design to extend them to the latter. Whether the current mechanical mix ultimately makes sense is another matter, of course.
 

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But, and this is a big point, in 1e-3e, any "damage" a fighter took was also "not real" until they were actually rendered unconscious... a loss of hit points had no effect on how they fought, which one must admit is a very gamist construction.

Cheers!

That is a valid counterargument and which is why i mentioned that earlier editions version of hp was not the panacea to those wanting an in-game to physical damage. But yes it definitely had some very gamist constructions in the regard of the dichotomous all or nothing physical condition.

My preference is closer to games that have limited hp that have larger penalties (BW, TSOY). But the HP worked for what they did and they did have a correlational mapping to physical damage. I dont feel that 4E does do this. It is a really gamist mechanic.
 

And, therein lies the flaw in your argument. When your story is divorced from the mechanics, and those mechanics have no objective meaning in the game world, no matter how much in-world logic your story may have that meaning is not derived from the mechanics. The mechanics simulate nothing outside of the game itself. You just choose to pretend that they do.

Hang on a sec - maybe I'm just know seeing what you are saying. Let me try to put it in my own words.

Hit points are pretty abstract; they don't have any objective meaning in the game world.* Because they are so abstract, they don't define what is happening in the game world. When I'm describing hit points - either loss or recovery - I'm just "pretending" to give them meaning.

I'm unclear on why you say "pretending". There are no mechanics for whether or not my PC hates an NPC or not, so I'm just pretending that he is, but it's not like it has no meaning. Maybe I'm not getting what you mean though.

* - Now I see they have a little, and that is that they determine how much staying power you have, how much fight you have left in you.
 

I think 4e mixes slightly different mechanics together - intricate combat mechanics with comparatively rules-light mechanics for other conflicts. As hp belong to the former, it wouldn't fit with the current design to extend them to the latter. Whether the current mechanical mix ultimately makes sense is another matter, of course.

I agree that my ideas would probably cause the game to fail to reach its design goals. I feel that 4E is a game first system and its mechanics are much tighter than previous editions with the goal of delivering tactical enjoyment in series of encounters. My ideas would probably interfere with that.

I tend to be a flavor first approach enthusiast while knowing that the mechanics need to be able to deliver the flavor without too much klunkiness. 4E is probably a good example, it has superior mechanics in terms of meeting its design goals comapred to earlier editions (i think it is well-designed) but fails to evoke a flavor that i find interesting.

While I could use the rules and have fun with them, other games will evoke the flavor I want better with either greater simulationism (rolemaster) or greater narrativism (some indie games)

I think earlier editions (1E and 2E) are probably mechanically inferior and much more klunky but the rules support a flavor of game I like (some of this also being nostalgia without a doubt, i honestly play D&D specifically to some extent as it brings forth some nostalgia).
 

There are basically two types of wound in Rolemaster. You have your general "concussive hits" which fulfill the role of hit points in D&D. If you manage to lose all of them, you die. Until then, your combat effectiveness isn't impaired - that's if I remember correctly, for it has been quite a while since I've played Rolemaster.

However, more significant than CP are Critical Hits, which provide actual descriptions of the wounds you suffer. It's been observed that hitting people doesn't kill people in RM, crits kill people. It's an observation I agree with. So, you can get a "thigh wound" which reduces your movement by 25% until healed - either through rest or curative magic.

In RM, combat is a bit too deadly for my liking, and it certainly has the death spiral effect, where hits impair your abilities so much that you can't come back.
In RM, concussion hits do model the ability to withstand cuts, bruising etc. They are also what is lost from bleeding wounds (eg an arrow might cause bleeding of 3/round). Losing all concussion hits means unconsciousness; death comes when negative hits are equal to CON score (typically 60 to 100 for a PC). Starting hits for a PC are around 10 to 50, depending on class and edition, and maximum hits for a human are around 175 (usually achieved by a PC fighter somewhere between 10th and 20th level, depending on edition and the details of the character build).

So a character with 100 CON and 175 hits can take 275 hits before dying, about 3 times that of a typical starting PC (30 hits, 70 CON). But s/he can take many more hits than the low level PC before falling unconscious (about 9 times as many).

To get a sense of what these numbers mean, an average attack with a sword against an unarmoured person can easily deal 30 or more hits as well as fairly serious critical damage.

HARP uses a similar concussion hit mechanic to RM, although PC hit totals are likely to be slightly lower.

RQ uses hit points as a measure of physical toughness. It's been a while for me, but I think that hit points equals average of CON and SIZE, so will typically be somewhere between 10 and 16 for a starting PC. Weapons deal damage comparable to D&D, but armour reduces damage, so (for example) it is quite hard to hurt an armoured person with a dagger.

Most basic roleplaying systems (Stormbringer, Cthulhu etc) use a similar approach. In RQ, and unlike most of those other games, hit points are applied not only to the general pool but to particular locations, and when a location takes more than a certain amount of damage it is weakened or destroyed (and destroying the head causes death even if the character has hit points remaining).

These are the main simulationist damage mechanics that I'm familiar with. I think Chivalry & Sorcery and HERO use something similar to RQ but without the hit location, and I think both also distinguish lethal from non-lethal damage, which come from separate pools.

In most of those systems, the effects of damage were pretty severe. The main point was that you needed to avoid being hit in the first place, and they'd give mechanisms to allow to you to do that: Hero Points in James Bond, really high Dodge scores and Force Points in Star Wars. If you got hit, you were actually hit.
In RM you avoid getting hit by parrying. In RQ and HARP, by parrying or dodging. The difference between RM and HARP on the one hand, and RQ on the other, is that parrying involves a trade-off against attack (a little like 3E combat expertise) and thus requires the player to make choices round-by-round about the sorts of risks her or his PC will take.

In HARP there is also a Fate Point mechanic for increasing defence, or for reducing damage once a foe's attack has been resolved.

D&D has a simpler system where the mechanism for avoiding being hit is also part of the hit point system. If you get "hit" for 40 hp - enough damage to kill a horse - and you still have 40 hp, then we say you weren't actually hit after all. Healing Surges are indeed confusing the issue
A system that is quite non-simulationist in its action resolution mechanics is HeroWars - conflicts are resolved by the player and the GM each staking a certain number of "action points", and then gaining or losing these depending on the result of their die rolls, and only once one side has lost all its action points is the outcome known and any wound penalties to future conflicts accrued by the losing character. The rulebooks have good advice on how to narrate this conflict so that the narration doesn't foreclose future possibilities that the rules leave open. For example, it is always possible that a PC might come back from even a very serious action point loss, and so it would be a mistake to narrate that as a grievious wound until it is known that the battle is lost.

A comparison here is Frodo getting stabbed by the spear in Moria - we know that a heavy blow was struck by the orc chief, but we don't know what it's effect on Frodo was to the end, at which point we discovered that his mithril armour saved him.

So in 4e, as Herremann the Wise has pointed out, it is possible for a PC to be in a state where (according to the mechanics) either s/he is dead in 18 seconds, or s/he is up and fighting again in 6 seconds. How to narrate that? Not in a way that excludes either possibility - thus one might refer to the character having fallen with a spray of blood from her face, but only after the death saves have all been rolled and any healing surges applied does the narration firm up, either to "You see now that her skull has been staved in" or "Wiping from her eyes the blood flowing from the gash in her forehead, she gathers her resolve, stands and returns to the fray."

After a five minute rest, depending on whether or not the PC has healing surges to apply, we can then go further: either "The blood flow stops, but the cut is deep and will easily reopen" if she has no surges to apply and is therefore close to going down in the next fight, or "Some water washes the wound clean as the blood stops flowing. Luckily it was only a surface injury - with any luck it won't trouble her any more."

As to the main issue: is it an objection that the mechanics don't dictate to the players and GM exactly how the gameworld should be described? It depends what sort of experience you want out of playing an RPG. If you want the game to tell you a story, it probably is an objection. If you want to use the game to tell a story, then it's probably a virtue that the mechanics seed a story (via setting paramters) without dictating one.
 

SNIP...........

As to the main issue: is it an objection that the mechanics don't dictate to the players and GM exactly how the gameworld should be described? It depends what sort of experience you want out of playing an RPG. If you want the game to tell you a story, it probably is an objection. If you want to use the game to tell a story, then it's probably a virtue that the mechanics seed a story (via setting paramters) without dictating one.

As usual great analysis Pemerton of the hp spectrum from a variety of games.

I like your last paragraph as it hits the heart of the issue across the spectrum of games.
 

If you want the game to tell you a story, it probably is an objection. If you want to use the game to tell a story, then it's probably a virtue that the mechanics seed a story (via setting paramters) without dictating one.

It's funny, because to me, gamism might be associated with "anti-narrativism", and therefore I'd prefer the former. But to other people gamism might be associated with "anti-simulationism", and therefore they'd prefer the latter.
 

Pemerton said:
Is it an objection that the mechanics don't dictate to the players and GM exactly how the gameworld should be described?
Some comments on your question:
- Mechanics along with flavour should inform not dictate (scratch the unnecessary negative connotation).
- Exactness in even a rpg simulation is going a little far wouldn't you say? I'll settle for a good representation of the action that keeps my group happy - YMMV.
- Should be described or could be described? I think anything that aids the DM in describing what has happened is a good thing.

Or if you invert the question and put the shoe on the other foot:

"Is it an objection that the mechanics inform the players and GM what has happened in the game?"

Let's take your example:

Pemerton said:
...it is possible for a PC to be in a state where (according to the mechanics) either s/he is dead in 18 seconds, or s/he is up and fighting again in 6 seconds. How to narrate that? Not in a way that excludes either possibility - thus one might refer to the character having fallen with a spray of blood from her face, but only after the death saves have all been rolled and any healing surges applied does the narration firm up, either to "You see now that her skull has been staved in" or "Wiping from her eyes the blood flowing from the gash in her forehead, she gathers her resolve, stands and returns to the fray."
What happens if a character gets a closer look before the situation is resolved? I suppose you have to say "you're not sure but they don't look in a good way - they definitely need some help." Players will quickly understand in terms of mechanics what this means. However, what story are you left with at the end of the day?

[Our adventuring heroes Pemerton and Herremann gather around the evening campfire to discuss the day's adventuring]

Pemerton: Hard day today Herremann, how are you feeling after that axe to the head?

Herremann: Axe to the head? Is that what it was? I seem OK, I can still cast my spells fine. It must have been a grazing shot then.

Pemerton: Actually it looked pretty bad at the time. Blood sprayed everywhere.

Herremann: Really? Was it that bad? I suppose it must have been as it knocked me clean out.

Pemerton: I reckon you could have been seconds away from death actually.

Herremann: Surely not... I couldn't have been that bad because I'm fine now - just a little bit weary though... near my bedtime actually.

[Herremann thinks for a moment reviewing his adventuring career with Pemerton before asking something he'd been meaning to for a while]

Herremann: It's funny that.

Pemerton: What?

Herremann: I've never been seriously injured.

Pemerton: Never?

Herremann: Nope. Never. Just scratches and bruises; although my head is a little sore come to think about it. No gut openings, no broken legs. I mean look... I've still got all ten fingers.

Pemerton: Actually you're right come to think about it. I've never been seriously injured either.

[Pemerton thinks hard and can't think of a time when a good night's rest hasn't done the trick]

Herremann: Hmmm... must be something with the new deity around here that controls things.

Pemerton: New deity? Oh yeah that's right.

Herremann: I mean I like the old one, don't get me wrong but you hear stories of flayings and spells that can rip your guts out from the bad dudes that followed him. You don't get stuff like that with the new guy. I feel much safer actually.

Pemerton: I've heard stories about other deities that would curl your toes... then make them fall off along with your head. The world's a much safer place now.

Herremann: So it is... so it is. It might be interesting though.

Pemerton: What?

Herremann: It might be interesting to deal with a broken leg. Or even just a good gash that'll leave a big scar. Like the old days... you know?

Pemerton: Nuh, it'll never happen.

Herremann: Never?

Pemerton: I don't think so... unless of course you want to die from it. Then you can get a broken leg, a big gash right through your belly and maybe even a decapitation... all at once even.

Herremann: But only if I die?

Pemerton: That's the rules I think. Can't happen any other way.

[Herremann shakes his head in wonder then gets up to pull out his spellbook and bedroll before retiring. He ponders the wonders of this new adventuring world]

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
 


It's funny, because to me, gamism might be associated with "anti-narrativism", and therefore I'd prefer the former. But to other people gamism might be associated with "anti-simulationism", and therefore they'd prefer the latter.

I think they don't have to be opposed. But maybe it's like in software
- functional
- cheap
- fast
Pick any two. ;)

For example, you could create a system that simulates combats with a high degree of detail and a "realistic" level of lethality. And then you add a gamist system that allows heroes to take away this lethality or at least control it better. The system can stay "gamist", or you pretend they actually represent something in the in-game world- maybe the characters extraordinary ability to manipulate the flow of quantum probabilities (A Torg-Like approach, and apparently also something the James Bond RPG used, if I read MerricB correctly).

On top of that, you could add "narrative" powers that allow the player to narrate certain events in the game (be it the enemy moving into a position so that he can use his 5 pressure point exploding heart technique, or him deciding that he has a previously unestablished connection in the foreign place the party has to visit) - which again could be modifying quantum probabilities, or just a game mechanic with no attempt to simulate anything.
 

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