4E value < 3E value

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If your main concern in value is how much fluffy goodness you get, then, yeah, the 3e FRCS is a better "value."

I think WotC figured that breaking it up (and jacking up the readability) would provide better value for each part. I believe they consider a dense tome of text as a removal of value -- it's not portable, it's can't be easily referenced, it's intimidating to first-timers, etc. All these things remove from its value, in WotC's mind, I think.

But value is notoriously subjective, so what makes it less of a value for you might make it a better value for someone else.

So far all the 4E books seemed to be guided by the ideas of "usability at the table". A dense text/small script would of course hinder this.

I wonder if maybe WotC needs to reconsider their approach a little bit - maybe there is a "need" for a dense, detailed book that contains a lot of background information, supplemented by a book that can be used as a reference.

I am not sure this can work - after all, if the details are there, wouldn't you want to use/reference them at the game table, too?
 

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So far all the 4E books seemed to be guided by the ideas of "usability at the table". A dense text/small script would of course hinder this.

I wonder if maybe WotC needs to reconsider their approach a little bit - maybe there is a "need" for a dense, detailed book that contains a lot of background information, supplemented by a book that can be used as a reference.

I am not sure this can work - after all, if the details are there, wouldn't you want to use/reference them at the game table, too?

I don't know how other DMs do it, but during preparation time, I do write up what I think I will need at the table. The actual book is used at the table to reference too, and even the "hyperdense" 3E FRCS works well for that.

Frankly, I think of this "too many details/info is bad" stance as extremely patronising. Don't tell me that I cannot use info, and am better of not having it. The info I can get from the new books is what I'd remember anyway after a short glancing over a more detailed entry.

And don't tell me I can't use a book for reference. It's not rocket science to look up something - especially if there's an index. That goes doubly for setting info, which is usually far easier to find than rules, unless someone really goofed up in laying out the book.
 

I think WotC pulled a bit of a fast one when they split the FRCS into two books, when one book with smaller text would have been dandy. $70 list for both? Why not $50 for one big book? Seeing that I'd only be mining the book for ideas, I couldn't bring myself to even spend the Amazon $18 on the Player's Guide.

Well, given that those are pretty much the only two books coming out for 4e Forgotten Realms, I'm not sure that's really true. Plus, there legitimately is an argument that two books is a good thing: one for players, and a book full of secrets for DMs.

Finally, the 3e FRCS might well have been the book with the single most value in the entire 3e line - that thing is absolutely packed with goodness (perhaps even to excess). How do the 4e FR books compare with, say, the Eberron core book? (I quite liked the Eberron book, but it did cram in significantly less than the FRCS.)

Anyone else disappointed with post-core 4E value?

I haven't and won't invest in anything post-core in 4e until my group have a chance to properly evaluate the system in play. It seems unlikely we'll be sticking with it: I have deep misgivings, and am probably the most pro-4e member of my group, odd as that thought is.

Are they "dumbing down" D&D?

If "making the game more accessible" == "dumbing down", then yes. Frankly, I've long felt the game (3e) is too complex in the core rulebooks, so consider the greater accessibility one of the best features of 4e - it's just that I don't care for a lot of the other choices WotC made with the game.
 

Frankly, I think of this "too many details/info is bad" stance as extremely patronising. Don't tell me that I cannot use info, and am better of not having it. The info I can get from the new books is what I'd remember anyway after a short glancing over a more detailed entry.
It is not patronizing someone if they just say: "Reading text in small fonts is strenuous for eyes, and makes it harder to find information". That is just a basic rule of usability.

It is usually not so great for gameplay if anyone has to flip through the book to find an information (be it a rule or a background information), which makes a high readability (so you don't miss the information you search on a glance), a good index and a good table of contents very important. (I don't have the book and can only make guesses on how well the latter parts work.)

Another thing I wonder - there have been always complaints about how FR is to detailed, has too many NPCs. Not everyone agrees on that. But maybe WotC decided that those that don't agree need to be given a book that suites their desires, because they thing they will bring in more money? It can't be denied that not every book is aimed at every one. Sometimes a compromise works, but sometimes it won't and you have make a pick, even if you alienate some people.
 
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If "making the game more accessible" == "dumbing down", then yes. Frankly, I've long felt the game (3e) is too complex in the core rulebooks, so consider the greater accessibility one of the best features of 4e - it's just that I don't care for a lot of the other choices WotC made with the game.

Reducing setting information is not really making the game more acessible. It just reduces the game's scope and options.

3E FR already showed less detailed information compared to 2E. 4E FR is much worse, reducing entire regions to cliff notes of cliff notes.

I don't know about you, but having actual details about customs society and locations of a region was not making a setting "less accessible", it was making it more accessible for those who don't have the time to make up their own setting.
 

I don't know about you, but having actual details about customs society and locations of a region was not making a setting "less accessible", it was making it more accessible for those who don't have the time to make up their own setting.
I think a representative from Wizards could reasonably come into this thread and claim they can't win when it comes to FR. In any case, the fact is that it was a stated goal of theirs, this time around, to leave the Realms much more open to DM customisation than it has been previously. Whether they've gone too far in that direction is a valid question, but from the perspective of someone who admittedly doesn't run FR, I would have to say, "No".
 

It is not patronizing someone if they just say: "Reading text in small fonts is strenuous for eyes, and makes it harder to find information". That is just a basic rule of usability.

It's patronising to say "too much info is too much for you to handle, so we won't offer it, you dumb idiot DM." And that's how this "too much detail is bad" reads to me. Give me details, and allow me to pick and choose how much of it I use.

It is usually not so great for gameplay if anyone has to flip through the book to find an information (be it a rule or a background information), which makes a high readability (so you don't miss the information you search on a glance), a good index and a good table of contents very important. (I don't have the book and can only make guesses on how well the latter parts work.)

Another thing I wonder - there have been always complaints about how FR is to detailed, has too many NPCs. Not everyone agrees on that. But maybe WotC decided that those that don't agree need to be given a book that suites their desires, because they thing they will bring in more money? It can't be denied that not every book is aimed at every one. Sometimes a compromise works, but sometimes it won't and you have make a pick, even if you alienate some people.

The problem is that the book doesn't offer much details. I can honestly say that I knew just about as much about the regions I am interested - the entire south - from reading a discussion on those forums as I did from reading the book. That's a plain failure to deliver. Those regions lack any color, and lack information needed to run them as more than "shop and sell" stopovers between dungeon crawls. Any local color the DM will have to invent, right down to clothes and culture.

Where is the note that tells me how imaskari, calimshan, genasi soldiers and commoners dress? Where are the details about thayan wizards' tatoos? Where are the parts that make the setting more than some dry blurbs?

Compared to 2E's regional books, the 4E FRCS info reads like some advertising teaser - with the "and we won't get you more info" disclaimer right behind.
 

I disagree totally with this statement. I can always opt not to buy a book that's available and save money, but I can't buy a book I actually want or even need if it's not published. Less books are bad, period. Less information is bad. If I want to make up background info I can do that perfectly fine, but I shouldn't have to do that for just about every region in a setting because there is no usable info available at all.

While I understand your stance on this, I think that part of the limits imposed on setting material releases is a market strategy for WotC's benefit. Let's face it, people are a bit cautious with their spending money these days. Given that 'region' books are largely picked up by DMs and not players, and that most DMs can't even agree on which regions they prefer to focus on, area splatbooks become a gamble. I know in my area the local stores lost money on Eberron splatbooks; they just sat on the shelves because even the Eberron fans complained about the quality from book to book. I'm guessing in a lot of places, the FR books suffered similarly (after all, not everyone cares about Thay and Rashemen or the empires of the Yuan-ti or whatever was in Other Book X; I know I didn't feel the need for a whole book on Waterdeep).

Anyway, my meandering point is that with the statement that there will be a player's book, a DM's book, and an adventure it is my belief that WotC is trying to insulate themselves against having stockrooms full of releases that didn't fly. After all, they did mention in one of the commentaries I had read that more than three books may be produced if there is a demand for it. To me, that implies that they're willing to add more detail to a setting if it looks like they won't be wasting their money in doing so. Honestly, given what happened to TSR toward the end of 2E, I can understand their reasons for playing closer to the chest this time.

Oh, and to weigh in on the original topic; I find the new books much easier to read. I agree that the 3E campaign setting had a much greater amount of detail, even given what people are saying the Player's Guide adds to it. The textbook format, however, made it impossible for me to ever read the book cover to cover. Frankly, I'd get bored. Some of the material I couldn't care less about, a lighter hand was needed on prestige classes and new spells, and the sample characters and scholarly prose were space-wasters. So I guess it's a trade-off; do you want tightly packed information, or loose guidelines set up in a reference format? I'd say there's no wrong answer here.

Personally, for my money, the absolute best campaign setting material to come out of 3.X was the Arthaus Ravenloft setting. The format was easy to read, the setting information (especially in the area splatbooks) was informative and easy to digest, and the idea of presenting the detailed setting info in the Gazetteers in a manner condusive to use in roleplay was brilliant. If WotC wants tips on how to make a setting feel less like a case study and more like a living, breathing animal, they should really pay attention to the work of those writers.

As always, just my interpretations and opinions in this post. Agree or ignore as needed.
 

I think a representative from Wizards could reasonably come into this thread and claim they can't win when it comes to FR. In any case, the fact is that it was a stated goal of theirs, this time around, to leave the Realms much more open to DM customisation than it has been previously. Whether they've gone too far in that direction is a valid question, but from the perspective of someone who admittedly doesn't run FR, I would have to say, "No".

They made DM customisation mandatory. That's very nice if you want to sell adventure paths, but it doesn't really make the realms accessible to new DMs who are not used to make things up.

Not to mention that any DM who can handle as much customisation as is needed already was experienced enough to customise the 2E and 3E Realms - which makes the whole "more open to customisation" argument hollow.
 

The problem is that the book doesn't offer much details. I can honestly say that I knew just about as much about the regions I am interested - the entire south - from reading a discussion on those forums as I did from reading the book. That's a plain failure to deliver. Those regions lack any color, and lack information needed to run them as more than "shop and sell" stopovers between dungeon crawls. Any local color the DM will have to invent, right down to clothes and culture.

Where is the note that tells me how imaskari, calimshan, genasi soldiers and commoners dress? Where are the details about thayan wizards' tatoos? Where are the parts that make the setting more than some dry blurbs?

Compared to 2E's regional books, the 4E FRCS info reads like some advertising teaser - with the "and we won't get you more info" disclaimer right behind.

From your last paragraph it seems apparent that you aren't comparing like with like. If you're comparing the information provided in the FRCG about a region to the information provided about a region in a 2E regional book, then it's absolutely certain the 4E book is certain to come up short. So does the equivalent 3E FRCS, or the 1E boxed set, or the 2E guide.

Personally I'm getting old enough to prefer a larger font and a clearer layout. Not that I care about FR as I did in 1E days, but I got plenty of ideas for things to do from the FRCG and I'm not too bothered by a lack of trivia. As a regular Tekumel/Glorantha player it does make me amused how FR players are always going on about the amazing detail of their setting. It just isn't so.
 

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