Flavour First vs Game First - a comparison

[LostSoul]

Just another point: how often does the Schrödinger's Cat form of wounds actually come into play? Precious few times.

I've never noticed a single instance of it in my games.

RC, do you have an example from a game where you ran into this problem?

 

[Fenes]

Just another point: how often does the Schrödinger's Cat form of wounds actually come into play? Precious few times.

Each time I describe damage taken by a character as anything else than "you take 10 hp damage". I know in Star Wars revised with its VP/WP system, I take care to describe no real wounds when it's just VP "damage", and describe "hits" as near-misses that leave the character strained from dodging or with superficial if slightly painful effects.
In D&D 3E, I usually resort to small cuts or gashes, or bruises when detailing damage, until one gets dropped. It's not much of a problem in my 3E campaign since after a fight there's usually plenty of rest and magical healing to go around, we rarely do dungeon crawls with multiple fights.
Bt yes, if I'd describe some damage as a wound, my players react accordingly and wouldn't really roll with "it wasn't actually a wound since now you surged, sorry, just an illusion".

 

[pemerton]

Try playing in a campaign without encounters balanced by CR. I guarantee you that (successful) PCs will not always be insanely brave.

<snip>

So, basically, sandbox play handles this very, very well without requiring any changes to the hit point rules.

It does, but not via the action resolution mechanics (eg in classic D&D and AD&D PCs never make morale roles). It happens via freeform roleplaying. This is quite different from a game like (for example) HeroWars or The Dying Earth in which the mechanics treat "morale damage" and "physical damage" in the same way.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I'm still left waiting on this gaming nirvana I have in my head. I suppose it's impossible otherwise surely someone would have come up with it.

Everyone is looking for the perfect system, but I suppose most game designers know that they don't exist, and they try just to make the best system for their audience (in many cases, that's the designer himself ).

if I'd describe some damage as a wound, my players react accordingly and wouldn't really roll with "it wasn't actually a wound since now you surged, sorry, just an illusion".

Then don't do that. "You have a painful wound, but since you surged, you're soldiering on. You probably will still limp for a few days, but it doesn't matter - you have to go on!"

 

[pemerton]

if I'd describe some damage as a wound, my players react accordingly and wouldn't really roll with "it wasn't actually a wound since now you surged, sorry, just an illusion".

I don't want to just repeat what Lost Soul and Hypersmurf have been saying, but I do feel compelled to ask: why does the wound have to be retconned away? Why can't the PC both be wounded, and be functional, because the healing surge is interpreted, on that occasion of surging, as an act of will to overcome the pain?

EDIT: Apparently I'm repeating Mustrum Ridcully as well!

 

[Fenes]

I don't want to just repeat what Lost Soul and Hypersmurf have been saying, but I do feel compelled to ask: why does the wound have to be retconned away? Why can't the PC both be wounded, and be functional, because the healing surge is interpreted, on that occasion of surging, as an act of will to overcome the pain?

EDIT: Apparently I'm repeating Mustrum Ridcully as well!

Because it strains my (and most likely my players') sense of immersion if someone gets wounded to within an inch of his life, then "overcomes the pain", then suffers the same fate again, then overcomes the pain again, and then gets even more wounds, overcoming them again. The mental picture is rather like the old "I took 20 arrows to the chest, but no worry, I still have HPs left, so I am fine". Some wounds you simply do not ignore for too long.

I am fine with "ignoring the pain" of an stab to the thigh for a single fight, but doing that for the rest of the day, without any treatment? And doing the same for the arrow to the side, the slash to the biceps, the dislocated shoulder and the broken femur?

As long as you call superficial cuts "wounds" it works, but once you enter actual serious wounds in your description - like when a wound drops a PC into negatives - and then a healing surge fixes them, I encounter problems. A smashed shoulder, a gut wound, a broken leg - those do not go away that easily just because you focus.

If I described such wounds, then my players would expect more serious consequences, barring the absence of magical healing, than a "and you ignore the pain and soldier on for the next week" handwave.

(And yes, IMC, all the swallowing critters usually die quite messily when a PC cuts himself free from their belly - none of that utterly stupid "muscle contractions close the hole".)

 

[Hypersmurf]

If I described such wounds, then my players would expect more serious consequences, barring the absence of magical healing, than a "and you ignore the pain and soldier on for the next week" handwave.

So what do you do in 3E when the 80 hit point fighter is dropped to 5 hit points and doesn't get any magical healing for a week, and can't rest the requisite 8 uninterrupted hours to recover hit points?

Do you impose penalties on him for being injured? The system doesn't. Can he soldier on at 5 hit points? The system allows him to.

There are no mechanical consequences in the rules for being low on hit points... so if you described those 75 points of damage as a smashed shoulder, a gut wound, and a broken leg, then you need to introduce house rules to cover the effects of a broken leg.

And if you said "gut wound", assuming that the cleric would heal him in a round or two, and then the cleric dies before he has a chance, you're left with a fighter you've described as having a gut wound, and you either have to invent rules to cover the mechanical effects, or you have to let him soldier on for the next week, or you have to retcon the description.

How is that any better than the problems you have with 4E?

-Hyp.

 

[Lanefan]

A few notes:

I've always used the "minor cuts and bruises" explanation of hit point loss until you get down to the last half dozen or so (i.e. the same as a commoner would have, where it really does hurt when you lose 'em), If nothing else, it gives meaning to the "cure xxx wounds" spells, and also makes it obvious if they've had any effect or not.

For heal-by-resting, the simplest system I've managed to come up with is this: a good night's rest gets you back hit points equal to 10% of your maximum (we call this a character's "Heal Rate"), rounding *all* fractions UP. Thus, if you have 10 h.p. your HR is 1; if you have 11 HP your HR is 2. That way, everyone heals at the same relative rate. That said, we use a system very similar to the WP-VP idea from Star Wars which makes things more complicated, but the idea remains.

A quick fix to Second Wind might be to make it temporary. You get back the hit points for the next half hour or so, but after that you go down to +1 and need to rest.

Lanefan

 

[Fenes]

So what do you do in 3E when the 80 hit point fighter is dropped to 5 hit points and doesn't get any magical healing for a week, and can't rest the requisite 8 uninterrupted hours to recover hit points?

Do you impose penalties on him for being injured? The system doesn't. Can he soldier on at 5 hit points? The system allows him to.

There are no mechanical consequences in the rules for being low on hit points... so if you described those 75 points of damage as a smashed shoulder, a gut wound, and a broken leg, then you need to introduce house rules to cover the effects of a broken leg.

And if you said "gut wound", assuming that the cleric would heal him in a round or two, and then the cleric dies before he has a chance, you're left with a fighter you've described as having a gut wound, and you either have to invent rules to cover the mechanical effects, or you have to let him soldier on for the next week, or you have to retcon the description.

How is that any better than the problems you have with 4E?

It may not be better for you, but it's better for me. I'd rather have a PC drink a potion and have magical healing than get some order from a warlord, and ignore wounds for a week.

If I describe wounds, and they do not get healed, then we roll with it, simple as that. If a PC has a broken leg, well, there's a broken leg. People know what it means, I don't need rules for it other than applying the appropriate modifier for some tests.

If a PC is reduced to 5 hitpoints, and can't heal up, then he'll stagger around, hover near death, and probably have fever dreams and hallucinations while dragging himself to help - or dies when he loses his 5 hp from a goblin attack, or a fall down a small ledge, or some cold damage out in the open.

I surely do not have to "let him soldier on" as if nothing was wrong.

 

[Hypersmurf]

If I describe wounds, and they do not get healed, then we roll with it, simple as that. If a PC has a broken leg, well, there's a broken leg. People know what it means, I don't need rules for it other than applying the appropriate modifier for some tests.

If a PC is reduced to 5 hitpoints, and can't heal up, then he'll stagger around, hover near death, and probably have fever dreams and hallucinations while dragging himself to help - or dies when he loses his 5 hp from a goblin attack, or a fall down a small ledge, or some cold damage out in the open.

I surely do not have to "let him soldier on" as if nothing was wrong.

Fair enough. So if you can introduce effects from outside the rules for wounds that are not healed magically in 3E, do the same in 4E.

In 3E, if you say "broken leg", he's got a broken leg, and you apply the appropriate modifier for some tests.

In 4E, if you say "broken leg", he's got a broken leg, and you apply the appropriate modifier for some tests. If he uses a healing surge, he's got more hit points than he had a moment ago, and it will take three hits from a goblin instead of one to kill him. But he's still got a broken leg, and you apply the appropriate modifier for some tests.

The broken leg modifier is not an effect of the 3E hit point rules, it's something you've added in. Similarly, it's not an effect of the 4E hit point rules, so the fact that he's regained some hit points doesn't have to cure his broken leg.

In D&D 3E, I usually resort to small cuts or gashes, or bruises when detailing damage, until one gets dropped.

So the 80 hit point fighter who has 5 hit points left, and has not yet been dropped, is still only suffering small cuts and bruises?

Does that mean the only time healing surges in 4E are actually an issue to you is when they change someone's status from negative to positive hit points?

-Hyp.