Challenge the Players, Not the Characters' Stats

[mhacdebhandia]

There needs to be some place for challenging the player without the need of dice.

Do you think this is absolutely true of all games of D&D, or is it just the way you prefer to play?

 

[The Little Raven]

"It’s up to you to think of ways you can use your skills to meet the challenges you face."

Let us change the wording slightly in conjuction with the rules for skills.

"It’s up to you to pick the correct skill to roll for to meet the challenges you face."

That's changing the entire nature of the statement, not just the wording. The book flat out says you need to think and figure out how to use your skills to successfully navigate a challenge, and the wording change you are trying to impose on it seems geared only to support your preconceived notion that you only have to pick a skill to succeed.

What the book actually says and what you claim it says are two entirely different things. If you're not going to accept the fact that the book doesn't say what you claim it does, then there's no point in continuing this discussion with you.

 

[El Mahdi]

"It’s up to you to pick the correct skill to roll for to meet the challenges you face."

I would say that concept even extends to character creation, where selecting the right skills the character needs to know, to meet the challenges you face, is also part of the challenge.

 

[justanobody]

Using skills is rolling a skill check technically. Picking the right skill to use is thinking how to use your characters skills to meet the challenges.

Yes character creation has a lot of it. Some times it is used in optimization of crunch, and others for optimization of character. That is why you really shoUldn't challenge the stats because you really never know what will be gained before hand unless you make the challenge on the spot and check the character rigurously right before making it.

 

[The Little Raven]

Picking the right skill to use is thinking how to use your characters skills to meet the challenges.

No, it's only part of the equation. Just saying "I use Athletics" doesn't tell me what you're using it to do, since you can do several things with it. That's like just saying "I solve the puzzle." It tells me, at a most basic level, what you want to do, but it doesn't give me the particulars that actually make it a feasible attempt at success.

As has been quoted from the book, multiple times, you have to think of the ways to use your skills to meet the challenge, not just figure out which skill to use.

 

[AllisterH]

what our group would do in this situation in our weird 1e/3.0 hybrid that we houseruled would be for the dm to tell the player "you cant just use diplomacy and roll. if it is a speech you want to make, you have to stand up, take on you character's voice and physical bearing and mannerisms, and make the speech to rally the troops. the diplomacy skill, as well as the quality of the speech you give will affect its success. i'm not telling you which will weigh more heavily--the speech you give and your ability to act it out in character or the diplomacy skill score--or what the dc is."

Ok, I got to ask....

Why would you make the PLAYER do this for Diplomacy (and I assume for other social skills) but I'm hazarding a guess that you didn't for physical skills such as jumping over a pit?

re: Player vs Character
Er, people DO realize that the 4e DMG explicitly talks about challenging the player instead of the character in designing encounters via puzzles, riddles on pgs 81-84.

How is it that 4E doesn't handle DM vs player (instead of DM vs character) situations when the DMG gives more help on the subject than either the 2e or 3e DMG? Hell I think it gives more guidance than those two DMGs COMBINED....

Did even the 1E DMG discuss this (I'm pretty sure it did, but I can't remember the pages...

 

[RFisher]

Note that I knew many a player in AD&D who only ever hit the enemy with the sword, since it was the only manuever the books described. For such players, the basic 4e combat manuevers are liberating and allow more variety!

It just seems to me that making them understand that they can do more would be better than giving them 4e.

 

[The Little Raven]

It just seems to me that making them understand that they can do more would be better than giving them 4e.

Well, since there is no mechanical differentiation between "I slash him with my sword." and "I wade into the fray, seeking out the hobgoblin commander and striking him with a mighty blow from my father's blade!" in any previous edition, one would argue that you couldn't do more, you could just describe it differently, which is possible in 4e... which actually provides mechanical differentiation, which allows you to actually do more, especially with the DMG page 42.

 

[justanobody]

No, it's only part of the equation. Just saying "I use Athletics" doesn't tell me what you're using it to do, since you can do several things with it. That's like just saying "I solve the puzzle." It tells me, at a most basic level, what you want to do, but it doesn't give me the particulars that actually make it a feasible attempt at success.

As has been quoted from the book, multiple times, you have to think of the ways to use your skills to meet the challenge, not just figure out which skill to use.

That is for people in the know correct, but those just picking up the book are offered little to go on otherwise. The only thing that is really required is to pick the correct skill, and roll to see if you fail or succeed. It isn't fun for me, but that is what comes from challenging the character stats.

 

[RFisher]

Well, since there is no mechanical differentiation between "I slash him with my sword." and "I wade into the fray, seeking out the hobgoblin commander and striking him with a mighty blow from my father's blade!" in any previous edition, one would argue that you couldn't do more, you could just describe it differently, which is possible in 4e... which actually provides mechanical differentiation, which allows you to actually do more, especially with the DMG page 42.

And this is exactly what frustrates me. I can’t figure out how to explain that you can do more, not just describe it differently. That the simple mechanics of the classic D&D system is sufficient to apply tactics.