Challenge the Players, Not the Characters' Stats

[Raven Crowking]

"I thought of a way I can use my skills! I roll a d4, and if I get a 1, I use Diplomacy, a 2, I use Intimidate..."

That's not a way to use your skills. That's a way to choose a skill. Once you've chosen your skill, you're still left with having to think of a way to use your skills to meet the challenges you face.

-Hyp.

You missed the distinction I made between glossing and actually using skills.

Most physical skills are glossed because the player cannot meaningfully engage in the campaign world in any physical way. Combat is not as glossed because combat is both cereberal and physical. Tactics are as important as outcome, and the player can interact tactically with the game world. Tactics are not nearly so glossy, as a result, but the outcome is a die roll -- completely glossed.

"Thinking of ways to use your skills" in this context can be taken to mean nothing more than glossing. I am not saying that this was what was intended; merely that it is not as clear as you seem to think it is.


RC

 

[Hypersmurf]

You missed the distinction I made between glossing and actually using skills.

I think glossing is acceptable (though only barely), as long as you are glossing over the details, but at least describe the way you are using the skill.

"I use Intimidate" doesn't tell us how you're using Intimidate.

"I use Intimidate to get him to tell us what he knows" distinguishes this from "I use Intimidate to get him to 'forget' he saw us", or "I use Intimidate to ensure he'll spread the word of our arrival". They're all glossing, but they're telling us what you're trying to achieve with the skill.

Obviously, in most cases, my personal preference is to avoid glossing except in trivial circumstances. But I accept some people are more comfortable with it.

-Hyp.

 

[Raven Crowking]

I think glossing is acceptable (though only barely), as long as you are glossing over the details, but at least describe the way you are using the skill.

Agreed.

But the implication was that the passage quoted said the same; it does not. Or, if it does, it does not do so explicitly enough to avoid multiple readings (some of which are more consistent with other advice in the 4e books, IMHO).

RC

 

[RFisher]

Storytelling isn't role-playing and you can't do both at the same time. It's functionally impossible.

What if I role-play my character telling a story? (^_^)

 

[Hypersmurf]

But the implication was that the passage quoted said the same; it does not.

The passsage quoted says you have to come up with ways to use your skills. You suggested a possible reading of this was that you have to come up with ways to select which skill to use.

That's different to coming up with a way to use a skill, but glossing over the details.

-Hyp.

 

[Raven Crowking]

The passsage quoted says you have to come up with ways to use your skills. You suggested a possible reading of this was that you have to come up with ways to select which skill to use.

That's different to coming up with a way to use a skill, but glossing over the details.

-Hyp.

Yes, and I included both in my post.

The PHB doesn't describe skill challenges, leaving the player to decide how to get use out of his skills. I stand by my statement that this is, within context, a possible reading of the text in question.

RC

 

[Delta]

"It’s up to you to think of ways you can use your skills to meet the challenges you face."

I also agree that every time this gets quoted, to me it parses as "you have to figure out what skill is relevant for a particular obstacle". I don't have 4E, so I don't have any more context than that, though.

 

[Raven Crowking]

I also agree that every time this gets quoted, to me it parses as "you have to figure out what skill is relevant for a particular obstacle". I don't have 4E, so I don't have any more context than that, though.

Exactly. This could have (and should have) been expanded upon if that is not what the designers meant. Crom knows that there is room enough in those books to do it, what with all the white space and all.

Worse, taken in context with the rest of the 4e PHB, this is all too easy to parse that way.

Perhaps this is intentional...so that the "obvious" meaning of the sentence depends upon your starting view? I don't generally credit game designers with that level of genius, however......


RC

 

[justanobody]

"I thought of a way I can use my skills! I roll a d4, and if I get a 1, I use Diplomacy, a 2, I use Intimidate..."

That's not a way to use your skills. That's a way to choose a skill. Once you've chosen your skill, you're still left with having to think of a way to use your skills to meet the challenges you face.

-Hyp.

"It’s up to you to think of ways you can use your skills to meet the challenges you face."

I am just curious. Is the PHB written for the characters to read or the players of D&D to read?

The players can use their skills to meet the challenge by picking one to roll for.

I ask any D&D character to please come forward and state how they read the PHB to mean.

When one does, I will concede on that the PHB was written for the players, and the players need only choose a skill.

Until a D&D character comes forward that has read the PHB I will stand by the book was written for the players, and the players use skills is by rolling checks. Anything else is roleplaying*, of which I have found very little rules for in the PHB upon my reading of it.

*Roleplaying, stroytelling, narrative, whichever you want to call it, I will save my opinions on that debate for a more appropriate thread.

So "I use diplomacy and rolled a 7" , is exactly how a player uses the skills since they can not talk to Smuggler Bob to convince him to lower his price on his wares. That is not using your skills as skills are defined. That is roleplaying.

"X successful rolls passes a skill check". That is how players use their skills.

There is a list of 11 or so and some with subsets in them, and all have modifiers and such. None give information on actually doing acrobatics and jumping around the room you, as a player are playing in, to show how you jump over the lava flow.**

** If you have a lava flow in the room you are playing D&D in, then please evacuate now. I don't wish to see or hear of anyone getting hurt trying a stunt like this.

 

[RFisher]

Perhaps it is irrelevant. (And I don’t have the 4e DMG anyway.) But it seems to me that Wizards never expected the skill challenges section to be examined and debated the way they did—say—the combat system.

Isn’t this little more just a “hey, here’s roughly one way to do some stuff”?