Points of Quality

[Simplicity]

4e is starting to drive me crazy. I love the 4e rule books. But I keep waiting for the adventure or campaign book that will make me go: Oooooooooooooh.

Keep on the Shadowfell is okay. It's better than Sunless Citadel was. But it's no Life's Bazaar. Villains in 4e seem to be the ones with 15-minute adventuring days. They clock in to be in the last battle, and then they're gone. With no setup other than a reference that the PCs should go fight their organization.

I look back at all of the good stuff that has come out at the end of 3.5e's reign. Pathfinder. Shackled City. Ptolus. That sort of product is the sort of product I like. High quality. Because let's face it, we don't NEED low-quality adventures. We can make an infinite number of those ourselves. And 4e makes that easier to do than it was in 3.5e.

Am I just hoping for too much too soon? Can Dungeon just not produce these sort of adventures until D&D Insider starts turning a profit? Are people finding Scales of War significantly more compelling than I am? Is it just me?

I don't *think* there's anything about the 4e ruleset which prevents interesting stories from being told. So why isn't it being done?

 

[takasi]

So why isn't it being done?

When there are new rules a table can have fun exploring the mechanics, powers and nuances of the game system. That takes a front seat, so the NPCs, game world and story aren't as important IMO.

As the system expands and people get sick of new classes and 'complete' book and whatnot, I bet WotC will start making more detailed adventures.

I think it's supply and demand.

 

[Rechan]

Look at the adventures WotC put out during 3e. Did any of those involve lots of story and roleplaying and suchlike?

Not to my recollection.

To be blunt, quality of story isn't really WotC's strong point.

 

[WhatGravitas]

To be blunt, quality of story isn't really WotC's strong point.

True. The best one was probably Red Hand of Doom... which was co-written by James Jacobs. Story- and plot-wise, Paizo has better writers and seem to focus on these aspects (though their adventures are meat-grinders). WotC has more "back-to-the-dungeon" adventures, though Last Breath of Ashenport wasn't bad.

Cheers, LT.

 

[Simplicity]

Look at the adventures WotC put out during 3e. Did any of those involve lots of story and roleplaying and suchlike?

Not to my recollection.

To be blunt, quality of story isn't really WotC's strong point.

But why? The people at WotC have entirely changed since 3e. Is it something about the corporations culture that makes it hard to inject story? I find that really hard to believe. Aren't half of these authors freelancers who work in and out of WotC anyways? Is it that the editing process isn't as rigorous or something? Playtesting? Is it just that this was the best they can do while they were in the free period?

 

[Rechan]

But why? The people at WotC have entirely changed since 3e. Is it something about the corporations culture that makes it hard to inject story? I find that really hard to believe. Aren't half of these authors freelancers who work in and out of WotC anyways? Is it that the editing process isn't as rigorous or something? Playtesting? Is it just that this was the best they can do while they were in the free period?

A few things come to mind. First, that when you write an adventure, you're only selling it to one guy: the DM. You're going to a variety of DMs out there, so you write the adventure to what will grab the most DMs.

Or possibly, RP/Story based adventures don't sell.

This has occurred before. There's been complaints with the RPGA and other gaming conventions, where people complain about the abundance of combat and lack of RP in modules, avow to write their own for the RPGA/conventions, and then no one buys the modules.

To put it another way. Why is it Goodman Games/Necromancer et al only made dungeon crawls with next to no story? Why aren't they packed to the gills with roleplaying and story? Or hey, Dungeon when Paizo ran it was "Submit your adventures". How many that were submitted were heavy in the story/roleplaying, compared to the dungeoncrawl?

Even when I look back at the Dungeon adventure paths, my god, the amount of combat vs. roleplaying/story! Shackled City was just one meat-grindy dungeoncrawl after another. So was Age of Worms. Granted, Savage Tide had some roleplaying in there.

 

[takasi]

But why? The people at WotC have entirely changed since 3e. Is it something about the corporations culture that makes it hard to inject story? I find that really hard to believe. Aren't half of these authors freelancers who work in and out of WotC anyways? Is it that the editing process isn't as rigorous or something? Playtesting? Is it just that this was the best they can do while they were in the free period?

Again, supply and demand?

No matter what you think of the quality, Keep on the Shadowfell probably outsold anything that Paizo or third party publishers have sold in the past due to...

1.) The New Edition
2.) Ease of Play
3.) Official License

If their adventures don't sell well and they determine it's because of lack of compelling railroads then I'm sure their corporate policies would change. It's not really up to me to figure out why they do the things they do, but instead to buy what I like.

Personally, I think their modules may not be the best to read but they provide fun maps and gameplay. My players and I think the best stories are the ones we make ourselves; we don't need someone else to do that for us.

 

[Simplicity]

A few things come to mind. First, that when you write an adventure, you're only selling it to one guy: the DM. You're going to a variety of DMs out there, so you write the adventure to what will grab the most DMs.

Or possibly, RP/Story based adventures don't sell.

This has occurred before. There's been complaints with the RPGA and other gaming conventions, where people complain about the abundance of combat and lack of RP in modules, avow to write their own for the RPGA/conventions, and then no one buys the modules.

To put it another way. Why is it Goodman Games/Necromancer et al only made dungeon crawls with next to no story? Why aren't they packed to the gills with roleplaying and story? Or hey, Dungeon when Paizo ran it was "Submit your adventures". How many that were submitted were heavy in the story/roleplaying, compared to the dungeoncrawl?

Even when I look back at the Dungeon adventure paths, my god, the amount of combat vs. roleplaying/story! Shackled City was just one meat-grindy dungeoncrawl after another. So was Age of Worms. Granted, Savage Tide had some roleplaying in there.

Shackled City was a HUGE dungeon crawl. HUGE. I didn't realize how huge until I actually ran it. But there was ample story potential as well. To be a quality adventure, you need to hit both story and combat. Paizo Dungeon did it by fleshing out their town areas, RP opportunities in additional articles. They had entire articles about the town setting. And then in the next issue, they'd have an entire article about some PC oriented aspect of the campaign...

 

[Simplicity]

Again, supply and demand?

Well really, you mean that there's no demand for it.

But I disagree. Dungeon's Adventure Path series revived the magazines and made it possible for Paizo to exist as it's own entity. They had a legitimate hold on half of the D&D populace as far as I can tell. The demand is there, I think.

 

[takasi]

But I disagree. Dungeon's Adventure Path series revived the magazines and made it possible for Paizo to exist as it's own entity. They had a legitimate hold on half of the D&D populace as far as I can tell. The demand is there, I think.

That's a straw man. I think there's demand, just not enough.

If the demand is high enough to be profitable for WotC I bet they would try to meet it.

Or more likely, the demand for their current 'quality' is already high enough that they do not need to change.

And again, having the NPCs and world be more interesting than the players and their powers is more important when the core mechanics and powers are more familiar. Right now I can find enjoyment in simple things like seeing how a gelatinous cube works or how effective power attack can be. The world and story don't have to be as compelling as they were in older editions become I'm still focusing on the changes to the rules.