D&D 3E/3.5 Action Points 3.5 vs 4.0

[Kaledor]

We've only been playing for a short while now, but it seems like everytime my players try to use their encounter or dailiy powers, they miss. This last game, one of my players called out that he wanted to use his action point to add a d6 to his result before I told him if he failed or not... he did this twice. And both times we had to explain that in 4.0 you can only use them to get another standard action.

So then we're left with players "wasting" their "big" attacks.

Has anyone experimented with using the old action point rules:

- get another free action.
or
- get +1d6 on any d20 roll BEFORE the outcome is announced


Maybe have two different pools:
Have the standard 4.0 Action Points that work exactly as defined in 4.0
and
Have a pool of points called Heroic Points that function like they did in 3.5 (we used the rules from the Eberron Camp Setting book... but I think you could find them in several places... I think Unearthed Arcana had rules in 3.0 for them even).

 

[Paul Strack]

I've been letting player characters (and monsters) use the Action Points for a re-roll as well as extra actions. That seems to reduce the whiff factor by a big margin.

I originally set up a more elaborate system with hero points, destiny points, etc. that did different things, but in decided that the action-point re-roll was enough.

 

[Kaledor]

I originally thought to make the Action Point work for both... but any worry about Action Points being renewed with a day's rest...

Does that make it better or worse?
In the old days you'd get half a dozen to last you the entire level. You could use one maybe every other or every third encounter. And you had to burn them b/c they didn't carry over, but you had to horde them a bit in case you REALLY need them against the BBEG.

If you make them come from the same pool as the 4.0 Action Points, that means that you could use one per day. Additionally, with 4.0 you can only use one per encounter (4.0 action point rules)... and there's no reason to horde them because you'll get a new one "tomorrow"...


I'm just trying to brainstorm a bit here and trying to post some questions, I'm not saying it's a bad thing to draw them from the same pool.

Have you noticed any problems?
Did you use APs in 3.5?

 

[Paul Strack]

I originally thought to make the Action Point work for both... but any worry about Action Points being renewed with a day's rest...

Does that make it better or worse?

It hasn't been a problem for me. I want the players to use lots of action points. One per encounter seems about right to me.

4E seems balanced so that you have roughly a 50% chance to hit with any given attack. That means your "big" attacks (dailies and encounter powers) are wasted about half the time. Missing is boring, and the re-roll helps keep the game fun for my players. Since my monsters get to use action points the same way, they hit also harder, keeping the overall game balanced. It makes combat run a bit faster as well (fewer whiffs).

This probably isn't the only way to "solve" the problem, but it works for my group.

As a side note, I also use Action Points to reward participation in Skill Challenges. I count skill challenges as an encounter towards earning a milestone, but only if the character participates in a challenge. This keeps characters involved even if the challenges are not in an area of strength for them. Since I tend to alternate skill challenges and combats, the PCs do end up having roughly one action point per encounter to spend.

 

[Khaalis]

I too have been looking into re-doing Action Points. I too feel that 1 Action Point PER encounter is the best balance (not 1 every other). I additionally agree that allowing the Action Point to be Either a bonus action OR a Re-roll works great.

 

[Kaledor]

It hasn't been a problem for me. I want the players to use lots of action points. One per encounter seems about right to me...
This probably isn't the only way to "solve" the problem, but it works for my group.

Sounds like it's a good system, I think I'll bring it to my players and see how they react.

Do you let them spend more than one action point in an encounter?
Can they spend it on either +d6 or +extra action?

Do the players get more d6's to roll as they gain levels like in the old 3.5 system? (IIRC, around 8th level you got to roll 2d6 and take the better number... oooh, it's been awhile since I've played 3.5 :/ hahaha).

As a side note, I also use Action Points to reward participation in Skill Challenges. I count skill challenges as an encounter towards earning a milestone, but only if the character participates in a challenge. This keeps characters involved even if the challenges are not in an area of strength for them. Since I tend to alternate skill challenges and combats, the PCs do end up having roughly one action point per encounter to spend.

I really like this idea. I had a skill challenge where one player couldn't really help out, but he kept trying to think of new ways to use his skills that he did have and this would have been a great reward system for that still of play.

 

[hvg3akaek]

I have started changing my 3.5E Action points with the 4E rules. AP's in my 3.5 game are still greatly more useful than in 4E, but some things I am wondering about carrying across.

In 3.5, I hand out APs per night (as in, game) instead of per level or per (in character) day.

This means that no tracking is needed from one game to the next, and people are encouraged to use them, before they are wasted when everyone packs up.


For 4e, I am thinking of using the rule that instead of getting an AP and a magic item use every two encounters, you get one every encounter, and can choose. It works out the same in the end, but adds a bit more flexibility for the players. Possibly, I will also allow an extra surge to be chosen instead (so, after each encounter, players either get an AP, or recharge a magic item daily, or healing surge). Again, giving the player the options, so if they had particularly bad rolls, they can recover more appropriately.

 

[Paul Strack]

Do you let them spend more than one action point in an encounter?

If they somehow end up with more than one point, yes. You have to be careful with a rule like this, though, otherwise they will just horde their points until the final fight (which tends to be the toughest).

Can they spend it on either +d6 or +extra action?

Do the players get more d6's to roll as they gain levels like in the old 3.5 system? (IIRC, around 8th level you got to roll 2d6 and take the better number... oooh, it's been awhile since I've played 3.5 :/ hahaha).

I don't do 3.5-style +1d6 bonuses. The action point can be used either to take an extra action or to re-roll a d20 roll. If the action point is used for a re-roll, the player has to take the new result.

 

[Kaledor]

I don't do 3.5-style +1d6 bonuses. The action point can be used either to take an extra action or to re-roll a d20 roll. If the action point is used for a re-roll, the player has to take the new result.

Do you find that this takes away from the Elven racial ability, since they already have the ability to reroll a d20 once per encounter??

 

[Kaledor]

For 4e, I am thinking of using the rule that instead of getting an AP and a magic item use every two encounters, you get one every encounter, and can choose. It works out the same in the end, but adds a bit more flexibility for the players. Possibly, I will also allow an extra surge to be chosen instead (so, after each encounter, players either get an AP, or recharge a magic item daily, or healing surge). Again, giving the player the options, so if they had particularly bad rolls, they can recover more appropriately.

So, every character starts the first encounter of the day with one action point, X surges (based on class), and one magic item use(MIU). After the encounter they get to pick whether they would like another AP, surge, or MIU? It goes on this way, getting a new choice at teh end of each encounter, until the character takes an extended rest. At which point they are reset back to having one AP, X surges, one MIU...


Be careful, I think that this adds to what Paul Strack was saying about characters hording their resources. If after every fight they get to choose: surge, AP, or MIU, they will just accumulate a surplus of MIUs or surges or AP (depending on the player) and blow them all against the BBEG. You're climatic fight, might not be so...
Also your characters may make easy fights too difficult in an attempt to save all of their resources for later. Rather than rationally thinking: "I'm gonna get another MIU, I may as well use one now..." It may become, "If I don't use my magic item now, I can save it, get another one, and later have two uses against the evil warlord --- 'course, I'm getting my butt handed to me now and could really use that magic item... oh well."