Forked Thread: PC concept limitations in 4e

[Cadfan]

Listen, I understand some things had to be held off because of room, future supplements, etc. Just don't tell me using Cloud of Daggers to replicate nearly any lost spell effect assumes the 4e core-rules are as robust as 3e's or 2e's. Its just not true.

I'm not the one who said that. Go double check earlier in the thread and make sure you're replying to who you think you are.

Also, 4e's core rules now are about a million times more robust than 3e's were in 2006.*

*I'm only counting Martial classes, because they're my favorite and apparently we're cherry picking data in this thread. I just want to fit in.

 

[Thasmodious]

Cloud of Daggers is JUST that; a zone of force attacks that create a specific effect. It doesn't Create zombie hands, it doesn't create fields of fluffy bunnies, it doesn't create illusionary birds that peck at your opponents mind. To say "reflavor cloud of daggers to create a lost spell/effect" isn't an answer, its a stopgap.

PHB pg 55: A power’s flavor text helps you understand what happens when you use a power and how you might describe it when you use it. You can alter this description as you like, to fit your own idea of what your power looks like. Your wizard’s magic missile spell, for example, might create phantasmal skulls that howl
through the air to strike your opponent, rather than simple bolts of magical energy.

Its the weakness of the damage + effect structure

This is puzzling and nonsensical.

Old way: Effect
New way: Effect + "damage"

the 4e core-rules are as robust as 3e's or 2e's. Its just not true.

They are, just different. That's why they put out all new books. Each edition makes decisions on what to roll out with at the start, no two editions have chosen the same, outside of some basics - the core 4 fighter, thief, wizard, cleric; humans, elves, dwarves.

You may not be able to see it, but don't presume to tell the rest of us what we see.

 

[The Little Raven]

Just don't tell me using Cloud of Daggers to replicate nearly any lost spell effect assumes the 4e core-rules are as robust as 3e's or 2e's. Its just not true.

I'm of the opinion that the ability to unintentionally make a useless character shows a severe weakness in the core rules of a game. To me, that means 3e and earlier editions are far less robust than 4e.

 

[Thasmodious]

Except for targeting resistances by damage type anything that whittles down hitpoints is pretty much the same .

So you are now telling us that your entire line of argument in this thread is completely baseless? We could have told you that a while ago and saved you the trouble of posting.

You're not arguing against 4e, as you claim, you're simply arguing against D&D in all its forms. Choose another game where no one ever does direct damage. Perhaps L&L (Lawyers and Legislators) is more your speed. Or World of Flowers: Peaceniks and Hippies, they just had a 2nd edition come out.

Look, it's a default assumption of 4e that hit points are an abstraction for, as someone else noted, "combat resolution points". It represents an abstract ability to fight, you wear down the enemy and then finish them off - sometimes with massive damage from the stabbity, sometimes with subtle spell effects. If you don't like that default assumption, 4e isn't for you. If 4e isn't for you, and isn't going to be for you, then how about letting those of us it is for discuss the game in a meaningful way without a bunch of baseless, disingenuous nonsense clouding things up? Would that really be too much to ask?

 

[LostSoul]

Its the weakness of the damage + effect structure; around the time Charm Person does "1d6 + Int and the target REALLY likes you", things start to look fishy. There are legitimate effects people have mentioned that don't exist, and no amount of recoloring existing powers is going to fix it.

Fix what - what's happening in the game world? Or something else? What is that something else?

Charm Person Wizard Attack 1
Encounter ♦ Arcane, Charm, Implement, Psychic
Standard Action Ranged 10
Target: One creature
Attack: Intelligence vs. Will
Hit: 2d6 + Intelligence modifier psychic damage, and the target is dazed until the end of your next turn.

That's based on Chill Strike, damaged reduced because it targets Will instead of Fort.

Anyways. When you bring a guy down to 0 HP with this attack - he's charmed. He's not a puddle on the ground; he's your friend, and doesn't want to fight you any more.

What this spell doesn't do - and I think this might be the big thing - is that it doesn't allow you to defeat the target by bypassing the target's hit points with a spell.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Is this theorycraft or your personal experience? Did playing a Fighter really feel the same as a Wizard? Did you use the same approach to combat, the same tactics. Did you not play these characters differently at all?

Just as an example on how damage + effect can be different:
1) Deal 2d4+INT damage at Range 20, opponent is pulled 3 squares.
2) Deal 2d4+INT damage at Range 20, opponent is dazed.
3) Deal 1[W]+STR damage at Melee Range, opponent is knocked prone.

Do these really work the same? Would you use 1) the same way you used 2)? Would these two powers in play feel that similar? Can't you think of situations where 1) would be more effective then 2), or the other way around? Is 3) not very different in application then 1) and 2)?

To be honest, and I wouldn't want to be called a LIAR or anything (not that anyone here would stoop to that), I have played a ranger, a cleric, and a wizard so far in our regular group play. This is all from introductory level play. I claim no high level play experience here.

My Eladrin bow ranger played ok, nothing super terrible to report about the experience. The character played much like an archer ranger to me.

My Human Cleric felt more like a wizard actually. I had healing powers but they turned out to be quite incidental actually. My main heal was a minor action and didn't interfere with my casting lance of faith (holy magic missile). Other healing powers that took real actions required me to taget and hit an enemy to use, once again making the healing a side effect.

My Human Wizard has been a mixed experience. Minions became less of a hassle after this guy joined the party but its been pretty much just a damage fest. I got rid of sleep at 2nd level because the one time I cast it it failed to live up to its name. Looking ahead at the higher level powers I see the numbers getting bigger but the same "save ends" suckage all the way through level 30.

Watching the combats I do see differences. The fighter engages at close range, does hp damage and scoots enemies about a little, the cleric blasts away like a wizard and heals as needed as an aside, and the wizard does much the same as the cleric (minus the heals) with occasional ongoing damage or short term status effect.

Perhaps at higher levels the differences become more pronounced. From reading I just see bigger numbers but we shall see how it plays out.

 

[ExploderWizard]

So you are now telling us that your entire line of argument in this thread is completely baseless? We could have told you that a while ago and saved you the trouble of posting.

You're not arguing against 4e, as you claim, you're simply arguing against D&D in all its forms. Choose another game where no one ever does direct damage. Perhaps L&L (Lawyers and Legislators) is more your speed. Or World of Flowers: Peaceniks and Hippies, they just had a 2nd edition come out.

WARMONGER!!!

Damage spells have thier place and DO belong in the game. Please direct me to where I may have posted something to the contrary.

I will add that there should also be spells that produce interesting effects in the tactical environment that do not cause damage. This is far from asking for a game where " no one does direct damage".

At the very least, if the essence of what a spell does changes drastically then change the name to match the effect rather than slap "iconic" spell names onto craptastic effects that in no way represent the spell.

Examples:
Charm Person = Psychedelic Shock
Confusion = Orbital Mind Zap
Forcecage = Delaying Shock

 

[thecasualoblivion]

Exploder Wizard--

Isn't it about time you drop the crap about complaining about what 4E does or doesn't do, and ask for the return of Save or Die?

Isn't this really what you're asking for? Or are you asking for some of the more unusual environmental spells?

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

Your defeating your own point.

Cloud of Daggers is JUST that; a zone of force attacks that create a specific effect. It doesn't Create zombie hands, it doesn't create fields of fluffy bunnies, it doesn't create illusionary birds that peck at your opponents mind. To say "reflavor cloud of daggers to create a lost spell/effect" isn't an answer, its a stopgap.

At a certain point, its no longer changing magic missile from silver to fuchsia, your using cloud of daggers to replicate a large swath of missing spell effects. Its the weakness of the damage + effect structure; around the time Charm Person does "1d6 + Int and the target REALLY likes you", things start to look fishy. There are legitimate effects people have mentioned that don't exist, and no amount of recoloring existing powers is going to fix it.

Especially since, in the end, your not creating a real power, your recoloring another. Might as well call your eldrich blast "Eyebite".

Listen, I understand some things had to be held off because of room, future supplements, etc. Just don't tell me using Cloud of Daggers to replicate nearly any lost spell effect assumes the 4e core-rules are as robust as 3e's or 2e's. Its just not true.

I think you're missing the point of this thread. "I want to play a character that casts Charm Person" is not a character concept. It is an old mechanic that does not exist in the current game. "I want to play a necrotic-themed wizard" is a character concept. And that concept CAN be achieved by describing the effects of existing powers in a necrotic-themed manner.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Exploder Wizard--

Isn't it about time you drop the crap about complaining about what 4E does or doesn't do, and ask for the return of Save or Die?

Isn't this really what you're asking for? Or are you asking for some of the more unusual environmental spells?

A sprinkling of both would be nice. Thanks for calling my concerns about change crap, you are indeed a scholar and a gentleman.