Forked Thread: How would you have done 4e's Powers?

I would have any starting level PC powers and higher level PC-created powers be first Player-defined when it comes to the fictional game world, but GM-defined when it comes to the rule system. Players would never be told the rules except via description in the same way they would never be told about an adventure module's contents except by descriptive summary. However, the Players will learn of the effects of the rules through playing in the game world. Because of this they may figure out some of the metagame system on their own, but the whole is still unknown to them (all of this is exploring the fictional world anyways as the two are the same in terms of operation).

That is not to say a power may not have a numerical definition like a weapon has a numerically defined damage range (i.e. 1-6), but the player does not fully know what the weapon is capable of until used, often repeatedly and in different circumstances. For instance, a mundane, corroded, copper sword may do nothing more than 1d4 damage, but the player would not learn even this small amount of information until using it (telling the player the damage to roll after the swing).

NPC & Game World-defined powers are totally GM-defined with Player recommendations being about on par with Player recommendations to any other Player. These powers are far more extensive then Player-defined powers. They cover the full range of how the world operates. For example: the life sucked out by a lich, the will one loses when taken over by a vampire, the weight of a stone, or the list of a boat when sailed under different wind speeds.

GMs also need to adapt Player-defined descriptions into his or her own Game World descriptions to account for why things work the way they do. As the Player learns the true extent of each of his' or hers' powers, those powers increase in utility/true power in relation to everything else in the world. The GM then re-evaluates his or her own hidden "power level" judgments for PC-powers in the system. It doesn't matter what the power is. This is the same for a magic spell as it is for a wooden stake. I'm defining Player powers here as "anything in the game world the PC can use to their advantage" whether it be object or action. For example, the wooden stake may originally be used only to pitch a tent, but then increases in power as players learn to use it for climbing, staking doors, and even killing vampires. As it's newly understood utility is learned by non-PCs in the world, its' value is rebalanced in gp cost (gold pieces being both an in-game and out-of-game measure of power). IMO, starting level gp costs are more about the desired starting difficulty for PCs/Players vs. the current measure of utility known to more or fewer NPCs, so they don't get adjusted.

Also, it's best to keep starting number of powers for PCs small so the total number doesn't overwhelm the DM (or the Players if they are young). This keeps the work load to a desirable level, though continuous as long as the game is played. Also, as the true importance/utility of powers increases by learning more of what they actually are through play, it's best to start with only a handful to allow for fresh game play with new powers throughout the game. This does not necessarily mean complexity increases as old powers are already fairly understood. They are not lost, so a PC's total options increase. But they are rarely being explored too.

IMO, one aspect of good game design is not just how many powers it offers, but how well it aids a DM with rules to simulate Player-defined powers without supplanting real choice from that player. Personally, infinite mathematical systems are more favorable to finite systems.

Plus, no matter how many powers or abilities Players begin with it's best to call the starting level "Level 1" and begin all new PCs/Players there. If you don't start all new PCs at starting level, you disenfranchise Players of their achievement of reaching higher level - as truth just about any computer RPG recognizes.
 

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I've just thought of another one:

Option 5: Introduce recharges for encounter and utility powers. Daily powers recharge on a 6, Encounter powers recharge on a 4,5,6, say. Do the same for monsters which have daily and encounter only powers.

Why? Because it is boring when you miss on half of your cool powers and you have to settle down to slogging your way through a fight with the at-wills.

BTW, one of Stalker0's original points which I disagree with is actually a disagreement with the 4e designers assertion that there was a problem with a "15 minute adventuring day". I've never seen it. Ever. I've never come across anyone that has seen it (and I'm sure if in any of the groups I've ever known that if a party *had* tried that, there would have been consequences which would have mitigated against trying it often). Low level casters could run out of spells, but once 5th-7th level was reached (and earlier if wands were found/made earlier) the casters never ran out of a combination of magic spells or wand-power. Just didn't happen. I think that a major element of 4e design was to counter an essentially non-existent problem. Maybe it was a problem which cropped up in the designers home games so they decided to fix it? Maybe there was a huge market research push to determine whether it was a genuine problem. Who knows?

Cheers
 

I've just thought of another one:

Option 5: Introduce recharges for encounter and utility powers. Daily powers recharge on a 6, Encounter powers recharge on a 4,5,6, say. Do the same for monsters which have daily and encounter only powers.

Why? Because it is boring when you miss on half of your cool powers and you have to settle down to slogging your way through a fight with the at-wills.

BTW, one of Stalker0's original points which I disagree with is actually a disagreement with the 4e designers assertion that there was a problem with a "15 minute adventuring day". I've never seen it. Ever.
It frankly doesn't matter if you have ever seen it or not. Enough people (possibly including the designers) reported the problem that the designers saw this as a problem and decided that they wanted to fix what lead there. We don't have to go through all the anecdotal evidence of its existence or non-existence again!

And it's not like this goal automatically hurt people that never encountered a 15 minute adventuring day!
 

It frankly doesn't matter if you have ever seen it or not.

I think it does - and f"rankly" your assertion carries no more weight than mine.

However, anecdotally, D&D has worked just fine for what, 30 years, with the current set up, so throwing that away is a major change which I believe demanded far more playtesting than they did. If 1000 people report a problem, is it a problem in 1,000,000 people didn't report it because they didn't see it?

I think the goal did hurt people who never saw a 15 minute adventuring day, because it was fundamental to the whole design of the 'powers' for 4e.

Anyway, having hived off one off-topic discussion from this thread, I didn't mean to start another one, so I'll leave it there.

Cheers
 

I think it does - and f"rankly" your assertion carries no more weight than mine.

However, anecdotally, D&D has worked just fine for what
It worked fine - but it can work even better.

But I think it's less about working fine but more about working differently. 3E marked a point where the game seemed to have moved a little from "operation" or "strategic" play towards tactical (encounter focused) play. But it didn't move entirely. People that focused more on the tactical play encountered problems due to the strategic foundations still in the system. And 4E is removing most of these foundations to facilitate the encounter-based play better and avoid the flaws the 3E dichotomy introduced for it - but of course it removes a major portion of the strategic play. (But not all - surges and dailies are for that purposes, but they supplement or spice up the encounter based play, they don't wreck it)

I have _really_ no idea about the distribution of the two play styles involved here. I can only suspect that WotC believed that the bigger audience would enjoy the tactical play more. Maybe it's because of the RPGA, maybe it's because of fans "at home", maybe it's just because that's how the designer play the game. But for anyone preferring the tactical play, the 4E implementation works a lot better then the 3E implementation.
 

I finally figured out what I'd do.

Martial classes:

I'd make martial dailies into encounter powers that cost healing surges (1 for heroic powers, 2 paragon, 3 epic). You can use martial "daily" and "encounter" attack powers a certian amount of times an encounter based on an ability modifier (2 + Int for rogues, 2+ Wis for fighters and rangers, 2 + Int/Cha for Warlords).

Arcane classes:

No Encounter powers. Instead they get daily metamagic based on an ability score. Things like "Your next fre spell this turn deal cold damage instead." and "Your Lightning spells deal 2d6 extra damage" depending on the class. Much like the Wizrd's Wand and Orb feature but daily and more numerous. Arcane classes would mostly be modifying their at wills and daily powers.

So a Wizard might have Scorching Blast, Ray of Frost, Sleep, and B's Icy Grasp. He could double fire damage 1/day, double cold damage 1/day, double range 1/day, Make a target fail their first save 1/day, turn an Area spell into a Close spell 1/day, and turn a Ranged spell into an Area spell 1/day.

Divine classes are fine. I like the idea of some prayers working all the time, some les frequent, and other only once a day.
 


I've just thought of another one:

Option 5: Introduce recharges for encounter and utility powers. Daily powers recharge on a 6, Encounter powers recharge on a 4,5,6, say. Do the same for monsters which have daily and encounter only powers.
So far that's the only suggestion I've seen that might work better than the current power system.

I disagree about your disagreement about the 15-minute-adventuring-day problem, though. Just because it didn't ever happen in your game doesn't say anything about how prevalent or problematic the phenomenon was:

Just because noone in my family has been murdered doesn't mean that no murderers exist nor that they aren't a problem that needs to be dealt with.
 

I have found Stalker0's articles all very good. This last one got me wondering how our EN world members would redo the 4e powers system based on what Stalker0 is pointing out in his article. How would you do the 4e power system to do it "right".

The idea of "powers" is a bit misleading. They really should be called "actions", and the concept of "actions" would include generic stuff like "skill actions" and "second wind." "Powers" (as 4E calls them) are just class-exclusive Actions.

If I were going to work with the 4E system of Powers/Actions, I would do a couple things:
1. Get rid of at-will Arcane and Divine actions. They just don't feel magical if you can do them at-will. The Paladin and Cleric in particular should have "martial" at-will actions, but the wizard too.
2. Re-write all the actions so that we don't need such precise knowledge of battlemat placement. I don't like the skirmish boardgame nature of 4E, and if the powers were rewritten to in this fashion we could go back to boardless gaming much more easily.
 

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