4E a good system base for a Tolkein RPG?

[mmadsen]

Wrong. Gary liked the professor's works well enough, he just preferred pulp fantasy more.

Gygax is on record as saying he liked The Hobbit but did not care for the Lord of the Rings trilogy, and that he included the Tolkien bits to help sell the game.

 

[Betote]

I don't think D&D, in any of its incarnations, would be a very good system for playing a "Lord of the Rings RPG". MERP wasn't, either. You can always, of course, use just characters, creatures and geography from LotR as a base for a D&D/WHFPR/RQ/SW/whatever fantasy RPG you want and have fun with it, but it would hardly be a "LotR RPG".

Nevertheless, I feel the same about "A Song of Fire and Ice" and it's going to be released as a RPG, so who knows

 

[Fifth Element]

Moreover, scrutiny from the Tolkien estate post-original D&D cease-and-desist issue meant that any D&D had to distance itself from anything related to Tolkien.

According to the blog, it was Tolkien Enterprises (who held the merchandising rights or somesuch), not the Tolkien estate.

 

[Remathilis]

Although I've not owned it, I remember being impressed by this when it came out.

I don't know if it is available, but some of Decipher's pages are still visible here

The Lord of the Rings RPG

and here The Lord of the Rings RPG

Cheers

I bought it dirt cheap when a local bookseller was closing.

If I ever figure out how to make a PC, I'll let you know how it plays.

As to 4e for LotR, I could be done in a martial only + multi-class arcane system (with limited rituals and revised magic item selection). The game would lack a controller for now, but that's life. (Surprisingly, the bard class might make an effective "caster" in the Tolkien world, if you need a full arcane class).

Using the common "no magic" house rule (+1 to hit, damage, AC, & defenses every 5 levels) you could even use many monsters as written (treants, orcs, worgs, goblins, balors, wights, and wraiths)

The big thing would, of course be tonal. Rewarding XP for moral quandries and role-playing (the challenge level/skill challenge system might be a good place to start).

 

[Remathilis]

i have a hard time thinking of a game less appropriate for lord of the rings than 4e.

rifts?

 

[Toben the Many]

I think 4e (and D&D in general) would be a woeful mismatch to LoTR; much as MERP was (I played lots of MERP years ago and it was a great game but a poor window for exploring Tolkien's worlds). D&D is almost the anti-thesis of Tolkien; Gygax HATED Tolkien and was a fan of pulp Fantasy and only put in Halflings etc under pressure from fans and friends.

I agree almost 100% percent. In the past, when we have run Middle Earth games, magic was almost CoC like for us. People had to roll a percentage chance to be noticed by Sauron for using any kind of magic at all.

Later, we added a component where the more magic one used the more magic the enemy was allowed to use magic against the entire party. Thus, most magic-using folks tried to use wisdom, cunning, and advice far more than actually flexing their arcane muscle.

These ideas pretty much violently oppose the concepts and ideas behind 4e. The idea of a wizard or warlock who can only use magic once in a while is pretty much anti-4e philosophy.

 

[thedungeondelver]

fatal.

<countrugen>
Stop saying that!
</countrugen>

 

[pemerton]

according to D&D heroes, are "badasses" who go around killing monsters to gain wealth.

<snip>

D&D and most other roleplaying games assume just the opposite; that "might is right" and that the exercise of power is an end in itself.

Tolkien does indeed show that bravery and valour are often rewarded but the situations you describe are all based upon the characters trying to AVOID slaying.

<snip>

The characters in Tolkien's works fight when there is no choice but they take no joy in it.

There is no reason why 4e couldn't be played in this fashion - the PCs are reluctant combatants who get their treasure mostly as rewards from their sponsors (eg Galadriel) rather than as loot. There is nothing about the 4e XP mechanics which requires the PCs to enjoy fighting, and there is nothing about the 4e treasure distribution mechanics which requires treasure to be looted from monsters.

Additionally rules that allow what should appear to be very imbalanced characters to be in play at the same time would be very helpful.

Humility, innocence, or loyalty to the ring bearer being a trait (power/stat/skill/ability etc) with equal potency/utility to sword slashing of doom.

In this case Sam can kill Shelob not because he has good fighting skills or abilities because he has the "loyalty to Frodo" ability

I agree with this, and 4e has no straightforward way to handle it. Certain Leader powers could be read in this sort of fashion, but it would be "loyalty to the party", not "loyalty to particular individual".

 

[ColonelHardisson]

I think 4e would make a great base for a Middle-earth game. It would have to be modified to give it a Tolkienesque "feel," but the basic system is a good fit.

4e's elves and eladrin model Tolkien's elves really well, much more than they did in previous editions. I'd tweak them a bit, possibly with race-specific feats or powers. Same with half elves. Halflings, dwarves, and humans all could be used pretty much "out of the box."

I think one would definitely have to add in craft and profession skills, and add some knowledge skills, to tweak the game to be more like the source material, but it doesn't strike me as being a monumental task. I've already seen some pretty decent, relatively easy-to-use fan-made material for doing just this right here on EN World.

Magic would have to be looked at, but it seems like this would involve culling the flashier spells and beefing up rituals. As I was reading the 4e books, it struck me that the new way of handling magic could work really well for a Middle-earth campaign. I'd suggest using Decipher's Lord of the Rings game's take on magic as a good model for modifying 4e's magic system. They aren't very different from each other, and Decipher's game did a really nice job of producing a collection of spells that really have a Middle-earth "feel."

 

[Truth Seeker]

I don't think it will fit...Tolkien's world was showcasing the rise of Man, and magic was fading from the world.

And yes, one previous company tried and failed on bring it to the RPG world, and I played it myself back then.

Very difficult at best.

D&D itself, will not able to fill that niche. Unless, it was stripped to the bare bones.

I was recently reading ohn D. Rateliff's "Brief History of Tolkien's RPGs" (Part 1, Part 2 and Part 3. Within I saw this tidbit about MERP (and later, about a potential WotC Tolkien RPG):



Reading this, it occurred to me that 4E manages to handle healing without having clerics reasonably well. Given D&D's long ties to Tolkien*, I believe that 4E would be a strong base to build a D&D/Tolkien.

Yes, I do think 4E would need a major rework to fit. I would definitely simply it to be able to attract a raw beginner audience, and I would adjust other things for flavor. Still, you don't have to worry too much about cleric/animists in the RPG.