4E a good system base for a Tolkein RPG?

I agree there is nothing in any RPG that strictly prevents use of it to depict it Middle earth, but to put Tolkien's world into the same frame as fireballs and instant magic is like trying to marry a cartoon with the works of Michaelangelo.

Yeah, blending the classical period of art and music with animation is terrible, just ask Fantasia or Loony Tunes ;)

To make the game reflect LotR you would need give all XP via quests and make each creature killed SUBTRACT from the final XP awarded. Then players would start to behave Heroically (in the sense Tolkien would have understood) in order to maintain an LotR feel.

The Fellowship slaughters orcs in Moria, worgs on the journey, join in the battles at Helm's Deep and Isengard and eventually the battle of the Pellenor Fields. Throughout the books, the heroic are rewarded for their killing and their martial deeds are celebrated. Gimli and Legolas even engage in a humorous body count contest, delighting in their slaughter of orcs. Merry and Eowyn are celebrated for slaying the Witch King. Combat is an essential part of the heroic ideal in Tolkien, even the tiny everyman in Bilbo takes part in a great battle. You see Sam rise to hero status when he faces down Shelob and rescues Frodo from the orcs. No, in Tolkien, battle still makes the hero.
 

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The Decipher game is based upon a series of assumptions that are very compatible with Tolkien's vision of LotR; i.e. that the characters are heroes. Not in the sense that D&D means, because according to D&D heroes, are "badasses" who go around killing monsters to gain wealth.

Tolkien's idea of heroes are people who are selfless, honorable, just, true and compassionate. The message of Tolkien is that the strong avoid and hate wielding power and that they seek mastery only over themselves.

D&D and most other roleplaying games assume just the opposite; that "might is right" and that the exercise of power is an end in itself. This is actually uncomfortably close to Tolkien's vision of evil, represented by Sauron and Morgoth. So although I make some suggestions above and below, for playing in Tolkien's world using RPG systems, the major modification you would need to make is in the DM and players heads.

Decipher's game stresses heroism and has a series of atrributes and mechanics that up hold Tolkien's values e.g. Bearing, that mean that some characters and NPCs have natural authority and presence that results in "battles of wills" that might be resolved via magic in another game are in fact done in a rather low-key way.

The magic system is also extremely subtle and the DM is encouraged to prevent inappropriate use of power. This would take most D&D player some serious getting used to as the most powerful spells are about 1st- 2nd level compared to D&D.

The CODA system for resolving conflicts, used in the Decipher game, is also sort of like the d20 system but just using D6s instead and so that most D&Der could learn it fairly quickly. There is also a system that is rather like feats that would also not cause problems to most D&Ders.
 

Thasmodious; Tolkien does indeed show that bravery and valour are often rewarded but the situations you describe are all based upon the characters trying to AVOID slaying. When they meet the Worgs, they are just trying to escape the Goblins but are cornered, and the same in Moria. Of course there are battles, because it would be a poor story without conflict, but the theme of non-violence is repeated again and again. It might have had something to do with the fact that Tolkien saw all his friends die in 1914-1916; a conflict he fought in. He spent most of his life writing stories that are tinged with a hatred of conflict.

The characters in Tolkien's works fight when there is no choice but they take no joy in it. If martial themes were so predominant why does Bilbo not slay Gollum when he is invisible and behind him; it is because as Gandalf states, that pity that moved him to stay his hand despite the treachery of Smeagol. I think we all know what would happen in a D&D game; sneak attack for +Xd6 damage!!!

I wonder if you have read the books or are basing your comments on the films?

To me the films capture the visual feel of LotR almost perfectly whilst almost trampling on the integrity of Tolkien's themes with equal perfection.
 

4E seems a really bad choice to emulate LoTRs. It could of course be forced to do it like many FRPGs but would not be a particularly good choice.

1E, 2E and 3E would also be pretty bad choices.

I would probably use burning wheel though that is too magical really.

MERP does a pretty fair job and a lot of the magic is not really flashy (just the mage class).

One question is what does someone mean by running a LoTR game.

Do they just mean setting or are they also talking about incoporating themes of the stories as well.

A good game for LoTR would have some narrative devices to incoporate the themes such as Power corrupts.

Also the hobbits while having done something effective in battle were not very good at it (they off course had the benefit of an author though), so rules that would give abilities like "loyal to Frodo" as a potent ability vs a more defined martial power/skill would be good.
 

The characters in Tolkien's works fight when there is no choice but they take no joy in it.

Sorry, I can't agree with that, and I've read the books several times over. Pity for Gollum is certainly there, but that has nothing to do with the other hundreds of killings in the books.

The fellowship, including the hobbits, seem quite happy to slaughter orcs, the societies of Gondor and Rohan are extremely militaristic and proud of it, even the sleepy Ents seem to revel in battle, when finally roused.

I'd argue you even get to see the Hobbits "level up" during the quest, and are proud of their ability and confidence when they return to the scoured Shire and lay a little smackdown on Sharky's cronies.
 

Apoptosis; I would say you can't play a Tolkienesque game without the themes because I tried many times as DM when I was younger and the players just trample over everything because they bring the assumptions of "normal RPGs" over. If the system rewards this behaviour then it only magnifies the problem.

You need to understand the base assumptions of the world in order to run it in a way that feels "right" at a subliminal level.

Decipher's Lord of the Rings game does indeed have atrributes/feats that model loyalty and perservance to reflect this, though it is by no means perfect.
 

Thasmodious; Tolkien does indeed show that bravery and valour are often rewarded but the situations you describe are all based upon the characters trying to AVOID slaying. When they meet the Worgs, they are just trying to escape the Goblins but are cornered, and the same in Moria. Of course there are battles, because it would be a poor story without conflict, but the theme of non-violence is repeated again and again. It might have had something to do with the fact that Tolkien saw all his friends die in 1914-1916; a conflict he fought in. He spent most of his life writing stories that are tinged with a hatred of conflict.

A hatred of the necessity of conflict, but a recognition of the nobility and sacrifice of battle for the cause of "good".

The characters in Tolkien's works fight when there is no choice but they take no joy in it.

Some do, some don't. Boromir relishes battle, as do Legolas and Gimli.

If martial themes were so predominant why does Bilbo not slay Gollum when he is invisible and behind him

One characters act of compassion, or two in this case, does not the entirety of the writing represent. They are singular acts. Both Frodo and Bilbo end their adventures with blood on their hands. And let's not forget that Biblo set out from his hole looking exactly to "kill things and take their stuff". He wanted to adventure in search of treasure. Frodo dreamed of adventure as well, but was thrust into a much more dire situation, obviously.

it is because as Gandalf states, that pity that moved him to stay his hand despite the treachery of Smeagol. I think we all know what would happen in a D&D game; sneak attack for +Xd6 damage!!!

Not necessarily and not because the rule demand it. Sparing Gollum would arise from the RP of the characters. An RPed Bilbo or Frodo would make the same call, it was the personality of the character involved. Most of the other characters involved in the story would have killed Gollum.

I wonder if you have read the books or are basing your comments on the films?

I wonder why you have to take to veiled insults when someone challenges your interpretation? I assure you I've read Tolkien extensively and often, I consider myself a bit of a Tolkien scholar having written extensively about Tolkien in pursuit of a degree in literature, including a lot of thematic examination. The works of Tolkien hold up the heroic ideal. Characters are often distinguished through or because of their great battles and martial deeds. The Fellowship is four extraordinary hobbits and five of the greatest heroes of the age, three of which that are distinguished primarily through their combat prowess (Boromir, Gimli and Legolas).

The story of LotR is not just one in which conflicts exist to move the story along, conflict is at the core. It's the story of the heroes of that conflict, their deeds big and small (and mostly martial) and the nobility of bravery in the face of necessary conflict.

The default assumption in D&D is that the PCs are going up against bad guys as well, through necessary conflict. They are not heroes for grave robbing, they are heroes for protecting villages from marauding orcs, ending undead menaces and the like. You don't have to play that way, of course, you can play the mercenary treasure hunters with few morals if you like, its a fairly open system of play.

I think D&D could do a decent Middle Earth game. Flashy magic is obviously not the norm, which is why I think 4e would be better at it than prior editions, because it is so easy to recolor it or make effects more subtle. Playing up how you magically slow your opponents rather than making a flashy ray out of your ray of frost, for example. Magic items are a big part of Middle Earth and D&D does that well. If that's the game that the group wanted to play, it would work, because the players would accept the limits necessary to make the game happen. One arcane caster in the group, perhaps, no clerics, leaving "healing" to warlords and bards. Or perhaps flavor clerics in a different direction, as healers and make healing word less a magical effect and more like the warlords or require a touch to simulate a hasty herbable concoction. "Ahh, I can barely lift my arm after that mace blow." "Here, chew this, you'll feel better."
 

Grimstaff; cast your mind the the following scenes and you will see what I mean;

Theodan King has just cast off the power of Saruman and is about to kill Grima Wormtongue when Aragorn prevents him saying "enough men have died on his account" or something similar. Grima is allowed to leave.

Also, Treebeard is NOT a lover of battle and he also lets Saruman and Grima leave Orthanc unmolested. He fought to defend his forest but took no joy in battle beyond that feeling that naturally accompanies battle.

Or when Sam and Frodo return to the Shire for some "smackdown" as you put it. I think you will find that Frodo is described as being "sick of the battle" and will touch no weapon and finally orders that Saruman be let go, even after all the evil he has done. Saruman himself then says something like "You have grown great young halfling" before Wormtongue kills him. THIS is where Tolkien is telling us the right way to behave, according to him.

I know what you mean about some of minor characters, but not every character in the book is "carrying Tolkien's moral philosphy". Just look at Boromir; the contrast with him and his brother also illustrates what I mean. Faramir is described as a bookish sort who only fights because he must. Boromir wants power, represented by the Ring, and he is one of the only members of the Fellowship to die. He is described as a fighter and his instincts are always aggressive. The same is true of Isildur.

The only place that Tolkien appears unremitting is with Orcs, which never seem to come in for the mercy treatment.
 


Thasmodius; I am basing my comments on some of Tolkien's own writings to his son Christopher about some of the themes in his book. I know he shows martial virtue and respected this, but this was because he was being true to the ancient tradition he was writing about.

Your last post shows that we essentially agree and I honestly don't know what we are arguing about?

I guess the internet does this eh?
 

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