Playtest: The Druid (merged)

[WalterKovacs]

Since the Errata/Updates says
So it is possible (at DM's discretion) for a druid to target something near a bunch of minions and thus get off the minion-killing goodness of flame seed without having to actually hit a difficult, dodging target. Aim it at the easy-to-hit object and watch the minions around it shrivel.

Won't work if the DM likes saying 'No', but I'd guess for most people that I see expecting considerable latitude from DMs on a range of stuff related to spells, it is pretty easy to justify lobbing the acorn by aiming at the ground near the minions.

Cheers

True, however it follows the bag of rats rule. People were complaining about the warlock's ability to auto-kill minions with dual wielding rods.

Ultimately, a DM can allow the druid to have a way to instantly kill minions. However that is the DM deciding to make the druid "better than the wizard". It is not a feature that is intentional ... this is the kind of power that fits perfectly for "bag of rats". Also, targeting an object is different than targeting "the ground". (Also, isn't everything standing on the ground adjacent to it?) The DM might allow the druid to attack a specific object in the square, but won't allow an empty square to be attacked.

EDIT:

Re-Multiclassing

With Martial Power they've introduced more multi-class options. It may be possible that each build of Druid would have their own multiclass options. Also, they may have a paragon path feast for someone that multiclasses "all the way" into druid getting the wild shape at-will.

It's possible that they give it 2/encounter (i.e. you can become a beast, and go back to being human 1 per encounter). Similar to the divine challenge which you can use 1/encounter, and it lasts until the end of the encounter, but you lose the option of transfering, etc ...

 

[Sir Brennen]

The DM might allow the druid to attack a specific object in the square, but won't allow an empty square to be attacked.

I'd rule that if the goal is to destroy/disable an object, like the rope holding up a chandelier, then it can be a target. Especially if the result is something cinematic and cool

"I attack the ground!" is right up there with "I attack the darkness!"

However, I could seen a pretty reasonable simulationist argument that Flame Seed is pretty much a grenade attack, which you usually target a location near the creature, not the creature itself. In fact, the fluff for Flame Seed even says: "When it strikes the ground..."

 

[abyssaldeath]

I would never allow that because one of the balancing factors of the power is that if you miss it does nothing. How do you miss the ground?

 

[Rechan]

I'd rule that if the goal is to destroy/disable an object, like the rope holding up a chandelier, then it can be a target. Especially if the result is something cinematic and cool

"I attack the ground!" is right up there with "I attack the darkness!"

I confess that my preferred use of Flame Seed would be making areas dangerous for enemies to walk into. Similar to how one would use cloud of daggers to make stepping into adoorway dangerous. The ability to make terrain threatening is really appealing to me.

So I would be attacking the ground.

Another thing I noticed is that Chill Wind is a super thunderwave. It effects the same area and attacks the same defense, but it's a ranged attack, and you can slide the target as opposed to just push them.

 

[Sir Brennen]

Re-Multiclassing

With Martial Power they've introduced more multi-class options. It may be possible that each build of Druid would have their own multiclass options. Also, they may have a paragon path feast for someone that multiclasses "all the way" into druid getting the wild shape at-will.

It's possible that they give it 2/encounter (i.e. you can become a beast, and go back to being human 1 per encounter). Similar to the divine challenge which you can use 1/encounter, and it lasts until the end of the encounter, but you lose the option of transfering, etc ...

Yeah, someone on the WotC boards mentioned it could be something like this... 1/Encounter with no duration limit. It would still need a Beast Form power or the Wildshape itself is basically useless.

I could see Wildshape 1/encounter + 1 Beast Form At-will usable once per encounter as part of a Druid MC feat. Having the At-will still actually function at will might be too good for a starting MC feat, especially since certain classes might have some strong synergies might emerging when switching back and forth from a condition-causing power and their normal form powers.

Plus, the MC character also gets the benefit of the 1 square shift when they change back to human. And the disguise factor of Wildshape is a benefit which hasn't been mentioned much. Posing as a stray dog or hiding in a herd of swine could have its benefits.

The 1/Encounter-til-end-of-encounter solution resolves the problem I mentioned upthread of additional Power Swap feat and Paragon multiclassing powers not being usable as frequently as intended. It would, however, mean the player has to think more strategically about when they use Wildshape in an encounter and if/when they should shift back.

 

[Shroomy]

I'd rule that if the goal is to destroy/disable an object, like the rope holding up a chandelier, then it can be a target. Especially if the result is something cinematic and cool

"I attack the ground!" is right up there with "I attack the darkness!"

However, I could seen a pretty reasonable simulationist argument that Flame Seed is pretty much a grenade attack, which you usually target a location near the creature, not the creature itself. In fact, the fluff for Flame Seed even says: "When it strikes the ground..."

I think that in most cases, attacking the ground would fall under the "legitimate targets - bag of rats" rule in the DMG.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I think that in most cases, attacking the ground would fall under the "legitimate targets - bag of rats" rule in the DMG.

It's funny, because in other threads I've had a hard time for being too restrictive in how I'd allow spells to be used, but this seems to be a fairly straightforward case of throwing a magic grenade at a specific location to me (probably requiring that someone target a prominent rock on the ground where he wants it to burst, using the p42 table to allocate a DC). Quite different to a 'bag of rats' situation IMO.

But there you go.

wrt to Chill Wind, I personally don't think it is as good as Thunderwave - the big, big advantage of thunderwave is that it is a close attack power, and better than that it is a "get away from me" close attack power.

It seems from the little we've seen before that they might have decided to balance the Druid a little by limiting his access to close attack powers (which seems a good thing to me - if he wants to attack people close to him he has got his beast powers.)

Cheers

 

[Shroomy]

It's funny, because in other threads I've had a hard time for being too restrictive in how I'd allow spells to be used, but this seems to be a fairly straightforward case of throwing a magic grenade at a specific location to me (probably requiring that someone target a prominent rock on the ground where he wants it to burst, using the p42 table to allocate a DC). Quite different to a 'bag of rats' situation IMO.

But there you go.

I see what you're saying, but it just seems like a way to game the system to me. Still, we are strictly speaking about minion killing here, so I probably shouldn't be too harsh and I wouldn't want to quash player creativity. Luckily, the moderate DCs on pg 42 probably aren't too far off from the average minion's Reflex defense.

 

[Jhaelen]

How do you miss the ground?

I wished I could figure it out but it must be possible: It's the secret to learning to fly!

 

[firesnakearies]

Missing the ground isn't as ridiculous as it sounds.

Go outside and mark a fairly large red X on the ground, then walk back 20-50 feet away from it.

Now pitch baseballs at that X. No underhand tossing, no gentle lobbing. A direct, fast throw.

Throw about 100 of them, and see if you hit that X every time. Most people will miss it quite a few times. I'll bet I'd only hit it about 50% of the time, or less. A very good pitcher would probably hit it 95% or more of the time, but he could still miss occasionally.

Now have a couple of your friends run around and spar in between you and that X on the ground 20-50 feet away, and keep trying to hit it.

Now try to hit it quickly while angry dogs are running toward you barking and growling.

Not as easy as it sounds anymore, eh?



Sure, if you're aiming at an adjacent square, I'd say there's no need for a roll. That's easy. But further away, I'd give the ground a base AC/Reflex of 8, plus you'd take the penalty for attacking a "prone" target with a ranged attack, plus I'd make it especially easy for the piece of ground to get cover or superior cover if anything or anyone was in the way, because it has no height component, no bulk to aim at.

So you could easily end up having to hit a 10 or 12, maybe even a 15, virtual Reflex score, to target a piece of ground. That's still not very tough, but at least it provides some chance to miss, which doesn't seem unlikely to me, and it also maintains the game balance aspect.

So no "free" minion-killing without a roll. But still pretty easy, because you're just trying to hit an X on the ground.