Tempests destroying two-hander style?

[James McMurray]

Forked from: Battlerager....Overpowered?

All in all though the comparison makes the Barbarian pretty sad. I am rather depressed about this power creep in 4e already - double swords, battleragers & tempests (who largely make 2 handers obsolete). I hope they have the balls to errata some of this stuff.

I'm curious how 2-handers die out because of tempest fighters.

 

[Lord Sessadore]

I'm not sure either. If you do some calculations of expected damage and AC for a two-handed fighter vs. a tempest fighter vs. a sword and board fighter, you'll find that, as one should expect, sword and board has lowest damage and highest defenses, two-hander has lowest defenses and highest damage, and tempest is in between the two. Some things to keep in mind, though: the calculations I did were based on just at-will attack damage at 1st level, I haven't really examined damage with higher level encounters and dailies, though the two-hander should still stay ahead because of his bigger [W] dice; and the differences in defenses and expected damage were on the order of a point or two, not major.

I'd say that two-handers are still very much alive and well. If you want big damage for a fighter, I'd say they're still the way to go.

 

[jedrious]

Forked from: Battlerager....Overpowered?



I'm curious how 2-handers die out because of tempest fighters.

New Car Smell

 

[Mengu]

Don't know about tempest fighters. But Barbarians and Battleragers I'm sure will put a dent in the number of Greatweapon fighters. Greatweapon fighter attracts a certain group of players. Barbarian/Battlerager attracts the same group, but with more fun offers.

I think Tempest actually opens up the fighter class to a different set of interests. Not sure if it's guilty of making anything obsolete.

 

[chitzk0i]

and the differences in defenses and expected damage were on the order of a point or two, not major.

A shield is +2 to AC and Reflex, which are the most commonly attacked defenses. Without a shield, you'll have something like 13 reflex. +2 is pretty close to 20% of that. On the other hand, I could get a fabulous +1 average damage with a two-handed weapon.

The benefits of a bigger damage die are more noticeable on critical hits and/or powers with more [w] dice, so at higher levels where you can crit more often and your typical [w] count gets closer to 2 or 3, you'll get more bang for your buck. At first level, that +1 damage just doesn't really cut it.

 

[aurance]

I'm not sure either. If you do some calculations of expected damage and AC for a two-handed fighter vs. a tempest fighter vs. a sword and board fighter, you'll find that, as one should expect, sword and board has lowest damage and highest defenses, two-hander has lowest defenses and highest damage, and tempest is in between the two. Some things to keep in mind, though: the calculations I did were based on just at-will attack damage at 1st level, I haven't really examined damage with higher level encounters and dailies, though the two-hander should still stay ahead because of his bigger [W] dice; and the differences in defenses and expected damage were on the order of a point or two, not major.

I'd say that two-handers are still very much alive and well. If you want big damage for a fighter, I'd say they're still the way to go.

Unfortunately, no. As you start stacking static damage mods, multiple attacks begin to scale much further ahead in damage than high x[W] dice attacks.

Higher level tempest fighters trail slightly behind in damage from rangers, and pull far ahead of warlocks. This is definitely solid striker level damage.

 

[Morgan_Scott82]

Unfortunately, no. As you start stacking static damage mods, multiple attacks begin to scale much further ahead in damage than high x[W] dice attacks.

Higher level tempest fighters trail slightly behind in damage from rangers, and pull far ahead of warlocks. This is definitely solid striker level damage.

I'd like to see some numbers to back this up. Not saying I disagree, just curious to see the math.

Sessadore and I had a discussion about Tempest fighters in another thread and we both did the math that showed with basic attacks Tempest out damaged the Sword and board, but trailed it for defense and tied the Great Weapon for damage and exceeded its defense at first level with equal stats and build appropriate military weapons.

With Superior weapons everybody gets a boost, as you would expect. The sword and board is still last for damage, first for AC, the Tempest is still in the middle for AC and now falls behind the great weapon for damage.

Math shown in this thread

 

[Cadfan]

Dark super secret of 4e fighters- low armor and high basic melee attack damage makes you better at your role.

Lets say we've got an AC 16 level 1 rogue, and a level 1 fighter. You're a monster. You've been marked by the fighter, making the rogue a functional AC 18. Which target do you attack, if:

1. The Fighter has an AC of 19, and will get to attack you as an immediate interrupt for 1d10+4 damage.
2. The Fighter has an AC of 18, and will get to attack you as an immediate interrupt for 1d8+6 damage.
3. The Fighter has an AC of 17, and will get to attack you as an immediate interrupt for 1d12+4, high critical damage.

All the Fighters have 18 strength and superior heavy bladed weapons. The first is a sword and board fighter with a bastard sword. The second is a tempest fighter with a double sword. The third is a two handed fighter with an, uh, whatchamacallit.

As you go further down the list, the potential gain for attacking the fighter goes up, and the potential penalty for failing to attack the fighter goes up. Carrot and stick.

Note- I do believe that the double sword is broken. Just for the record. With a more rational double sword, the tempest falls further behind.

 

[aurance]

I'd like to see some numbers to back this up. Not saying I disagree, just curious to see the math.

Okay.

By the way, both you and Sessadore did your calculations with level 1 characters, where of course the effect of weapon damage dice will be the greatest and you will have the smallest amount of static damage bonuses. Let's do some level 30 calcs.

Let's assume that a baseline of +2 proficiency with +8 attack stat modifier will give 50% hit.

Tempest Fighter: Reckless Double Sword +6, Weapon Focus, Agile Tempest, Pit Fighter (assume +4 Wis), Iron Armbands of Power, Marked Scourge, Heavy Blade Mastery

40% miss, 50% hit, 10% crit

(0.4 x 0 + 0.5 x 48 + 0.1 x 82) x 2 = 64.4 DPR with Double Strike

Great Weapon Fighter: Bloodclaw Fullblade +6, Weapon Focus, Pit Fighter (assume +4 Wis), Iron Armbands of Power, Marked Scourge, Heavy Blade Mastery. No Power Attack, 'cause it's a DPR loss at this high level of damage-on-hit.

40% miss, 50% hit, 10% crit

0.4 x 8 + 0.5 x 62 + 0.1 x 110.5 = 46.85 DPR with Reaping Strike

Stormwarden Ranger, current king of DPR: Reckless Scimitars +6, Weapon Focus, Lethal Hunter, Scimitar Dance, Storm Warden (assume +8 Dex), Iron Armbands of Power, Heavy Blade Mastery.

50% miss, 40% hit, 10% crit

(0.5 x 8 + 0.4 x 36 + 0.1 x 70) x 2 + 16 + (0.75 x 13.5) = 76.925 with Twin Strike

EDIT:

Wait a minute, Great Weapon Fighters have a nifty new at-will too, Brash Strike. Let's see what it does. Change weapon to Mordenkrad, add Hammer Rhythm, add in the +2 hit and +Con damage, all for the cost of granting Combat Advantage to enemies (no big deal usually for a defender, and might actually be good for "aggro" as per Cadfan's post above)...

35% miss, 55% hit, 10% crit

0.35 x 8 + 0.55 x 73 + 0.1 x 102 = 53.15 DPR with Brash Strike. Still not as good as Tempest, but getting much better.

 

[Baumi]

Don't forget that the Great Weapon Fighter get's a +1 to hit from the Weapon Training Class Feature ... not that it will change much. Anyway can you also try a Tempest Fighter with Short-Swords or Katars?

My (unproven) belief is that the Tempest Fighter would be ok without the double weapons (which give you not only the damage of a non-off-hand-weapon but also a defense bonus and makes it easier to enchant).