Pramas: Does 4E have staying power?

[Lacyon]

Of course it's all speculation at this point anyhow: IF 4E is going to bomb, and IF that means D&D goes away, and IF that means that the industry folds along with it, etc. I'm not exactly going to lay down a wager on those odds. But if it went that way, I think it could be a great thing for the hobby. The great stuff coming out in the Old School Renaissance (private print runs, print on demand services like Lulu, electronic publishing, online community, etc.) bears out the reasonability of the latter claim.

While such an eventuality would almost certainly make it easier for you to find the material that makes it appeal to you, I would argue that the great stuff coming out of the Old School Renaissance bears out the relative unreasonability of your claim that it would be great for "the hobby".

The genius of the garage is still there, just around the corner, for those to whom it holds great appeal. Knocking down the car dealership in front might make the garage easier to see from the street, but isn't going to make the garage more appealing to those who don't already like it.

 

[scruffygrognard]

I don't get this argument. I would imagine the new-to-the-game player is going to pick up the PHB1, maybe the MM1 and DMG1 if they're going to run a game, and not even really be aware of the expansions or that they're "missing" anything. After all, the game plays just fine with the first trio. It's us, the hardcore message board types, that are likely to feel as if our game is "incomplete" because we don't own Draconomicon VII - Pseudo-Natural Wyrms of Faerun.

My group has played a few sessions using the PHB, DMG and MM for 4th edition and feel that the game is not complete. It feels like a rushed product with a dearth of "real" options for players.

Yes there are lots of nifty powers and divergent paths for character classes, but these options felt too "gamist" and narrowly focused (damage boosts and positioning abilities) to hold any long-term interest for us.

 

[Drkfathr1]

It's too early for this to really be applicable, but I wonder how much WotC's attempt to merge "Core" with "supplements" will have in this regard.

They've said before that they don't want people to just think of the 4E PHB, DMG, and MM as being the "Core" rulebooks, but while I can understand why they'd want to do this - to make later releases seem more necessary - that sort of viewpoint seems like it'd make a lot of newcomers, particularly casual players, less inclined to play because it makes them feel like their game is incomplete without every single 4E book WotC puts out.

I wonder how much effect that's having on people (not) purchasing 4E books.

I think this is a strategy that's not going to work in the long run. Regardless of the fact that WOTC is now saying "Everybook is Core!", I believe that most consumers will still view the initial books as "core" and everything that follows a "supplement".

Players that didn't feel like (or couldn't afford) to buy every supplement in 3E aren't suddenly going to start snapping up all the extras in 4E. And the problem with that is that if those that buy the core 3 feel like the game is incomplete, they're not necessarily going to buy all the extras to get the rest of the game...they're going to give up and go to something else.

I don't know if that's the majority of the fan-base reaching a level where they realize they don't need every extra, or if it's perceived quality, economy, or what.

 

[TerraDave]

To certain posters:

Its not nice to be insulted in your own thread.

And its pretty stupid to refer to someone who has posted so much 4E news, and is clearly a fan of the game, as its "passive agressive" enemy.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

Was Basic D&D complete?

Was the AD&D 1E/2E core 3 complete?

4E has more character choices than all three of these by a longshot.

 

[garyh]

My group has played a few sessions using the PHB, DMG and MM for 4th edition and feel that the game is not complete. It feels like a rushed product with a dearth of "real" options for players.

Yes there are lots of nifty powers and divergent paths for character classes, but these options felt too "gamist" and narrowly focused (damage boosts and positioning abilities) to hold any long-term interest for us.

I miss half-orcs and barbarians, too, but I like tieflings, eladrin, dragonborn, warlords, and warlocks, so I still feel like I have a lot of interesting options. Also, I like tactical combat, and don't really think much (any) about the whole gamist/simulationist/narrative debate, so take that for what it's worth.

When 2e came out and TSR removed half-orcs and assassins, where there this many "incomplete" complaints? Maybe I'll find out in (un)reason's "Reading Dragon Magazine" thread.

Was Basic D&D complete?

Was the AD&D 1E/2E core 3 complete?

4E has more character choices than all three of these by a longshot.

Exactly.

 

[scruffygrognard]

Was Basic D&D complete?

Was the AD&D 1E/2E core 3 complete?

4E has more character choices than all three of these by a longshot.

I guess my years of playing 3rd edition, Castles & Crusades, and the other d20 OGL games I have played (Conan, Iron Heroes, Mutants & Masterminds, and a few others) spoiled me. Each game covered the bases it needed to cover with the "core books". 4th edition didn't.

For its time AD&D worked for me with just the core books. Could I go back to playing it? Probably not, but new editions are about going forward not backwards. 4th edition felt like a big step backwards...

Please don't get me wrong. If 4th edition "does it" for you, that's great. It just hasn't "done it" for me or any gamer than I know personally (and there are quiet a few).

 

[Imaro]

Was Basic D&D complete?

Was the AD&D 1E/2E core 3 complete?

4E has more character choices than all three of these by a longshot.

You know, I think it would be much more interesting to compare D&D 4e to other rpg's made within the past 5 years rather than versions of itself released over 25 years ago.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Players that didn't feel like (or couldn't afford) to buy every supplement in 3E aren't suddenly going to start snapping up all the extras in 4E. And the problem with that is that if those that buy the core 3 feel like the game is incomplete, they're not necessarily going to buy all the extras to get the rest of the game...they're going to give up and go to something else.

This is the Completist's Dilemma. It seems like, for 4e, Wizards in banking in a big way on players being completists. "They'll buy minis for the powers! They'll buy DDI for the compendium! They'll buy every supplement because it's core! Gotta catch 'em all!"

But if players don't feel like they can ever truly complete the collection (I...I can't afford all that!) they're more likely just to not even try and collect part of it (I don't want an incomplete product!).

Certainly, I'm a little in this category. I'm trying to be more fair to them, but in my book, if I've Gotta Catch 'em All, I'll leave that to the trufans and go play Ars Magica. I don't need D&D to have fun.

 

[jgbrowning]

You know, I think it would be much more interesting to compare D&D 4e to other rpg's made within the past 5 years rather than versions of itself released over 25 years ago.

I'd suspect that most of them have more than 4 potions. I could be wrong.

As a publisher of 4e material, I feel confident saying that 4e, as released in the 3 core books, is far from complete. WotC intentionally designed it to not be complete in 3 books for marketing purposes. They have been open about that, so I don't see the point in claiming the game is complete. It's not. It was never supposed to have been. It's supposed to be incomplete to get people to buy more, and keep buying.

People need to chill about sales numbers and "intent" when talking about them. We publishers talk about numbers a lot of the time, but not normally in public, just because of these types of reactions. Talking sales isn't an attack on the game, the market, the people behind the game, the company behind the game, the people that like the game, blah blah blah blah blah.

It's business for us. Trying to get the best information possible helps one make better personal decisions. I appreciate Chris's willingness to put up with a lot of whargarbl to add to my information pool.

Information which matches what I've previously managed to gather about the situation. Unlike most people here, I've actually got money riding on the success of 4e and I don't want to hear fairy-fart unicorn stories anymore than I want to hear doom-and-gloom troll-fart stories about the performance of the line.

joe b.