Reasoning behind Extended Rests?

[MrAlgothi]

Say what you will about surges, but they're definitely a mechanic designed to prevent you from healing.

I greatly disagree with your statement that Surges sole designe purpose is to prevent healing. Surges were designed to make healing a resource, and one that can be balanced at that. Combat in 4e, as well as just about every edition Ive played, is about managing resources, tactics and fun. When resources are low, fights change in how they can be won and tactics must be changed. This is the purpose of resource management in combat systems, to make encounters vary in difficulty based on party situation and to encourage tactical diversity.

If you are arguing that any system that includes limited resources will encounter a "15 minute Workday", then you are partially right. It will always be a possibility that a group burns the resources they need to continue and will have to "restock." That's not something that a system can easily change.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

So you have never ended a fight with the fighter completely out of surges while the wizard still has all his left?

Yes, I have. However, it was not after only one fight. Additionally, it's because our Wizard doesn't carry any close blast spells, and doesn't have Thunderwave. So he sits in the back pelting out his spells and never comes up close to help other party members that are in trouble. Plus, our DM doesn't usually attack him period, and prefers to focus on the frontline guys. Bad tactics on the part of the DM? Perhaps...or just being an effective Defender. Either way though, it's the DM and the Wizard that are creating the situation by either not attacking the Wizard or by having the Wizard do everything he can to stay as far away from the fight as possible...sometimes to the detriment of the party by being more than 10 squares away. At that range, he can't use many of his powers, and relies on Magic Missile.

All other consumables; ammo, healing potions, and the like are such that you can have any amount, limited only by how much cash you've been able to collect.

Your point? If you have 30 arrows and you use them all, you have 0 shurikens. Unless there's a weapons trader in the middle of the dungeon, there's no way to restock other than leaving and going back to town. The same applies to any consumable. You can have a lot, and you can increase the number you carry, but you can still run out. Would you also propose that if you run out of a consumable that you can magically get them back at a milestone? Probably not...but why are healing surges suddenly different?

Not so with surges. Once you have zero surges, you're all but impossible to heal without taking an extended rest. This makes it exceedingly risky to continue on.

That's the point of surges. When you have 0 or negative hitpoints you can't continue either. Heck, you have very low hitpoints and no healing, then it's very danagerous to continue with the encounter you're in, even if you have 10 surges in reserve. That's because you're limited in how many you can access in a fight. Granted, you could have healing items, but there are ways that those could be taken away, or all used up.

Say what you will about surges, but they're definitely a mechanic designed to prevent you from healing.

This is like saying that the action types are a mechanic designed to prevent you from taking actions. If you have a character that constantly mismanages resources by taking double moves, he'll never attack because he keeps trading down his standard for a move. Does that mean that we should make attacks minor actions? Of course not! It's up to the character to manage the limited resource of his 3 actions per round, and use them to play effectively. If he can't, then he's not doing his job correctly.

Healing surges are no different. It's up to the player and the party to manage their healing resources. If they choose to squander them by sending out the Fighter to soak up all the damage so that they never get hit, then they have to deal with the consequences. If instead, they use the Ranger in the party to sometimes try to take the heat off the Fighter and spread the damage around, then they're operating better as a party and using fewer of the Fighter's surges.

You shouldn't just give them extra surges though, because then you're just rewarding bad play and unsound tactics.

 

[ValhallaGH]

All other consumables; ammo, healing potions, and the like are such that you can have any amount, limited only by how much cash you've been able to collect.

And if your DM ever lets you acquire them.

I've literally had a character progress for eight levels (3 to 10) without ever seeing a healing potion or curative wand. In a 3.5 game. The only reasons he wasn't killed was because a) he was tough and surrounded by a good party, b) the DM usually adjusts damage and monster hp mid-fight to not kill characters he likes (and he liked mine).

That's far from the only game this has happened in, just the most extreme example.

Not so with surges. Once you have zero surges, you're all but impossible to heal without taking an extended rest. This makes it exceedingly risky to continue on.
[sic]
Say what you will about surges, but they're definitely a mechanic designed to prevent you from healing.

Not quite correct, sir. Healing Surges are a mechanic designed to limit your endurance. The whole point is to make it so that your characters can't have unlimited healing; that they must eventually rest; that they can't fight for 365 hours, with nothing more than five minute rests between fights.
Healing surges don't prevent you from healing, they just cut you off for the day when you've had enough.
Healing Surges are the bar tenders of healing.
They provide you with healing until you've reached your limit. Then they tell you to go sleep it off before coming back.

With the encounter-based class healing abilities, second winds, and five minute rests, it is possible for a skillful party to fight 947 encounters without taking an extended rest. To literally adventure for a week (24/7) without taking a break. This (presumably) violated the designers' suspension of disbelief and was generally seen as inappropriate, so they inserted a limiting mechanic.
Healing Surges.
This mechanic does two things. First, it provides a convenient and consistent amount of healing to an individual character for a given healing usage. Second, it provides a per diem limitation upon the character's ability to heal, without limiting the healer's ability to provide healing (or do other cool things, as per the 3e and 3.5e Cleric); eventually, this forces the character to rest.


Now, if this design goal bothers you then you can change the resulting mechanics.
For example, give all characters an unlimited number of healing surges, and watch parties adventure for days. The only changes I foresee are that you cannot then use drained healing surges as a penalty (such as for skill challenges), and that monsters that rely upon removing healing surges are less scary. Those monsters should receive some other effect that has a similar impact on the combat as removing a healing surge did.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

Now, if this design goal bothers you then you can change the resulting mechanics.
For example, give all characters an unlimited number of healing surges, and watch parties adventure for days. The only changes I foresee are that you cannot then use drained healing surges as a penalty (such as for skill challenges), and that monsters that rely upon removing healing surges are less scary. Those monsters should receive some other effect that has a similar impact on the combat as removing a healing surge did.

You'll also have to do something about the items that use Healing Surges in the Adventurer's Vault, as well as the Rituals in Ritually Speaking that use the Wizard's Healing surges. With infinite surges, those costs become irrelevant. I don't know what mechanic would replace it though... You could take away a daily for the Rituals, but making the items cost a daily isn't good because the point of the healing surge cost was to get around that. I suppose to you could make them eat a standard action or an action point...but if you use an action point then you can't use them whenever you want like you can now.

 

[ValhallaGH]

You'll also have to do something about the items that use Healing Surges in the Adventurer's Vault, as well as the Rituals in Ritually Speaking that use the Wizard's Healing surges. With infinite surges, those costs become irrelevant. I don't know what mechanic would replace it though... You could take away a daily for the Rituals, but making the items cost a daily isn't good because the point of the healing surge cost was to get around that. I suppose to you could make them eat a standard action or an action point...but if you use an action point then you can't use them whenever you want like you can now.

Maybe spending an Encounter power?
I'm unfamiliar with the sources you're citing, so I do have much input.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

Maybe spending an Encounter power?
I'm unfamiliar with the sources you're citing, so I do have much input.

Actually, there are magic items that are encounter use as well. So again, you'd be shifting the cost to another mechanic it wasn't designed for. The removal of the surge was used as a mechanic to limit the total uses, but not the number of uses per unit of time (encounter or daily). Changing it to an encounter ability just means you can use it once per encounter, but there's nothing that allows you to use it multiple times per encounter, or limits the number of uses per day.

If you were also implying that you could use the power in place of an encounter power (and therefore losing that power for the encounter) then this cost is much too high. The powers involved are usually minor and pale in comparison to your class encounter powers.

If you're unfamiliar with the items that I'm talking about, that's fine. I'm just pointing out a limitation of the "unlimited surges" mechanic. Implementing that will mean you have to redesign some of the magic items and rituals that use healing surges, since "infinite -1" is completely meaningless and doesn't cost the player anything.

 

[DracoSuave]

So you have never ended a fight with the fighter completely out of surges while the wizard still has all his left?

After a single encounter? No. Because my party's other characters know when and how to step in, and I'll take advantage of squishy characters when they set themselves up to be vulnerable.

Comparing surges to powers is disingenuous. The whole of 4E is designed around the goal of allowing the party to press on even when your powers are depleted, partly through ever-replenishing ones (encounter powers), partly through not having any really devastating ones (even the most powerful Daily has nothing on a level 9 spell).

Press on =/= Press on indefinately. You've taken the idea that the game is designed around a longevity greater than before and taken it to villify sensible limitations on that longevity. That because -some things- have no limits, all things must not.

All other consumables; ammo, healing potions, and the like are such that you can have any amount, limited only by how much cash you've been able to collect.

Not so with surges. Once you have zero surges, you're all but impossible to heal without taking an extended rest. This makes it exceedingly risky to continue on.

That's sort of the point of running out. Of having a limit on how far you can go.

Sure, surges "facilitate" healing. Just like a healing potion, say.

Given that parties are no longer slaves to the Wand of Cure Light Wounds, I'd say that surges have facilitated healing quite nicely. Seeing that any character can as a standard action heal 25% or more of their hps -just because they can-, I'd say healing has been facilitated. The resource they use to do so is replenished daily, and has nothing to do with gp, treasure, or other hand outs from the DM. Given that parties tend to start every encounter full of hps, simply because healing surges exist... yes. It is fair to say they facilitate healing, because healing is available to everyone out of the box.

Okay, so when you run out of healing potions your character magically becomes immune to Cure Light Wounds and Heal Skill checks too... right?

Of course not.

Say what you will about surges, but they're definitely a mechanic designed to prevent you from healing.

Strangely enough, I find healing to be more accessible in this new edition. The finite number of healing surges is a limit on your access to this bountiful supply. Compare to third edition, where you healed how much per day? 1 point per level.

Or second edition, where you healed how much? Zero?

And as well, unlike previous editions, that Cure Light Wounds ability is -always- going to be useful, as opposed to being an ever shrinking drop in the proverbial bucket.

Actually, looking at that, how many shots of healing did the 3E party bring per day, at level 1? You started with 3 CLW spells to take care of the entire party. Compare 3 shots of healing. Now look at your character sheet. -Wizards- have more shots of healing per day than a 1st level party got for the -entire party.-

'But that CLW could heal a wizard to full!'

Fair enough. Take -two- party members, and add up their healing surges. It'll be 12 or greater. 12 healing surges is enough to bring three characters up to full. Ergo, more healing than three CLW, when CLW is at its best.

Healing surges and their associated mechanics facilitate healing, and that's a fact. If not, then what is it that's been healing the parties I run for in 4e? Magical faerie dust? Wishes and dreams? The power of the elder gods? No. It's healing surges, simple fact.

But of course, as with any consumable item that isn't treasure based, players often get greedy, and toss it away. If the healing surge mechanic is preventing you from heal, that is ONLY because you and your party mismanaged your fight, -and- have no idea when to call it a day.

 

[77IM]

From a high level, D&D has always been about resource management.

Healing Surges are a resource the player needs to manage and decide when to use. This decision is only interesting if the resource is limited in some fashion (if it's not limited, it's not really a resource in the tactical sense, it's an asset). Healing Surges are limited and their very purpose is to limit healing in order to raise the question: Should we take our extended rest now?

If the game had no healing surges, the answer would always be "yes," because you want your hit points back. If the game had infinite healing surges, the answer would always be "no" (setting aside for the moment the issue of daily powers, which I'm surprised haven't been brought up more, as they are the flip side of the resource-management question).

As far as I know, extended rest is the only form of unlimited (non-resource-constrained) healing in the game (and it's quasi-limited by the fact that you can only do it once per day). It conveniently also renews your kill-stuff-dead resources (daily powers). The design goal is that there should be some decision-making by the players to decide when to take an extended rest. But if there's no downside, the decision itself becomes boring, and in this case it also leads to boring play (since the party just rests all the time).

I think 4e has a great handle on resource management within a single encounter, because: you can't typically get your spend resources back during the encounter. But something is slightly broken at the multi-encounter level if you are able to get them back between each and every encounter.


Another way to look at it: Players have two main resources.
1. Don't-get-dead-resource: Hit points and healing surges. Players want to keep them because if you lose them you're out of the game (you might get raised but that's at best a big PITA). They are limited because if they weren't you would be invincible.
2. Kill-stuff-dead-resource: Your encounter and daily powers. Players want to spend them to defeat enemies, but because they are limited, you need to decide when to spend them for maximum benefit.

The question of "when should these resources increase?" is a tricky one and I think dismissing the issue as "eh, extended rest works just fine" misses a lot of interesting possibilities for game play.

-- 77IM

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

So you have never ended a fight with the fighter completely out of surges while the wizard still has all his left?

Never. Of course I play a combat mage not affraid to puts his nose in the traffic to deliver powerful blasts and burst.

That being said, if it happened to you, I'd roll up the battlegrid map and whack the wizard player over the head and shout : ''Stop being a wuss and maybe Bob the fighter won't be near death after just two fight next time!''