Dragon 370 - Invoker Preview

[Felon]

For instance, this fluff turns me off really hard. If an Invoker really holds no allegiance to any God, and can just ask any deity for help, then it makes me wonder who would ever endow Invokers with their power to begin with. Why would you give someone access to divine power if they're not going to pray to you? What does a God get out of giving an Invoker a piece of divinity if the Invoker goes "Thanks! Now, watch as I go give a prayer to the deity you have sworn as your nemesis!" And why would a God grant that prayer, when the Invoker owes him jack?

Well, first, every description of how gods work in D&D tells us that they are neither omniscient nor omnipresent. They are not capable of evaluating every spell cast in their name on a case-by-case basis, and probably wouldn't if they could as most uses would be too minor to merit their attention. If the invoker knows how to invoke the prayer, it works without the god in question reviewing and stamping the petition. It's basically a pool of power set up for casters to attune themselves to. Since the invoker holds genuine faith in the gods why can't he attune himself?

Second, in the invoker's description it's made clear that all gods at some point in the ancient past made pacts to work together against the primordials. Think of the invoker's spell ability stemming from comprehending and invoking those pacts.

Third, gods make it possible for mortals to invoke their power because it promulgates their power and authority on the material plane, which is something a lot of gods in D&D seem to find important. If you shut yourself off from invocation, there are other fish in the sea, and those are the ones whose power will be proclaimed.

The Invoker comes off as a spell begger, a religious hobo with no allegiances, mooching off the scraps of the Gods' pity. Which may make an intriguing concept for a character, but not, imho, a whole class around. I could see it if the Invoker was asking lower-rung beings (Saints, Demon princes, Angels, Exarchs/Demi-Gods, Ancestors/Legendary Heroes), or Spirits (even though that is likely the Shaman's bag), or stealing power from esoteric sources or finding loopholes in the Divine power (the Archivist's bag), but not directly asking the Gods.

See, I think the invoker's description places him in a similar arena to the archivist. He's a spell-beggar if you please, or a spell-lawyer, or a spell-opportunist. Just so, a cleric or paladin could be considered spell-syccophants or spell-slaves.

 

[Felon]

I'm talking about Invoker Bob who prays to Pelor, who Pelor gives direct power. Invoker Bob is directly calling Pelor and saying "Hey, send an air-strike down here, ASAP" or "Hey, gimmie some divine juice right now to re-attach my friend's arm."

I determine a big, fat, bold line between tribute and respect and tangible, irrefutable, immediate magical power. Pelor isn't faxing down any divine purification when Farmer Joe says grace - Joe can still die of food poisoning or choke to death on his food, after all. But he is faxing down that divine mojo on behalf of the Invoker. So they are different.

See, there's the issue. You do operate under the notion that Pelor is omniscient and omnipresent, personally reviewing every situation where his name's invoked, and stamping (or not stamping) every spell cast in his name. That's a level of direct involvement that D&D gods don't exhibit.

 

[Rechan]

I don't know. Isn't getting divine powers more now like being imbued with it, and (practically) irrevocable? I mean, 4th edition clerics don't get accepted by their gods, but rather, they get initiated into the church by another cleric in a ritual, for example, aren't they? At least, that's what the player's handbook says, I believe.

That's the Fluff As Written in the PHB, yes.

But the PHB also implies that Warlocks get their power with no cost, no drawbacks, no strings attached, and they owe jack to the source of their power, even if they asked a Devil for it. Also the fluff as written allows a Wizard to just stand there, stock still, and shoot magic without saying or doing anything (and he could even do it blindfolded; LoS isn't necessary, even though Line of Effect is; he's just at a -5 to hit because he has no LoS).

So the issue being argued is a matter of Opinion over the Fluff presented.

 

[Rechan]

See, there's the problem. You do operate under the notion that Pelor is omniscient and omnipresent, personally reviewing every situation and stamping (or not stamping) every spell cast in his name. Which is kind of bizarre, since we'd be in the realm of every prayer being divine intervention, rather than something based on the caster's own spiritual strength and understanding.

And I have every right to that interpretation or opinion. Regardless on if this jives with any precedence, or how you run your game or how everyone else does.

The simple fact is this: I state that I am turned off by the fluff for the Invoker, how it makes me feel, and why. Everyone else just seems to want to prove my feelings are badwrongfun.

 

[Scribble]

And I have every right to that interpretation or opinion. Regardless on if this jives with any precedence, or how you run your game or how everyone else does.

The simple fact is that the fluff of the Invoker turns me off. Everyone else just seems to want to prove my dislike of the fluff badwrongfun.

Hrmm... I don't think anyone is purposefully trying to say you're doing anything "wrong."

What I do think is that you're stating you dislike something, and why you dislike it. Others are pointing out that your premis for disliking it is based on incorrect assumptions (about how the gods in 4e opperate as per the book) and pointing out those incorrect assumptions. (Probably in an attempt to maybe show why they DO enjoy it.)

In the end, I don't think anyone here thinks you HAVE to like it.

I could be completely wrong though, and maybe people do think you have to like it or soemthing. I don't, but I do agree your basic assumptions are incorrect.

 

[Felon]

And I have every right to that interpretation or opinion. Regardless on if this jives with any precedence, or how you run your game or how everyone else does.

The simple fact is that the fluff of the Invoker turns me off. Everyone else just seems to want to prove my dislike of the fluff badwrongfun.

You didn't state your issues with the invoker as just being incongruent with your homebrew campaign. Obviously, if your cosmos differs from the norm, and you don't have gods forming ancient pacts to unite against the primords, then the invoker's fluff text is a no-sale.

And it's not badwrongfun, just...bizarre if you're using divine powers as-is. For instance, let's say a Pelor cleric needs to do some healing urgently. Now, in this particular world Pelor personally evaluates every use of his power, from petty to epic. So, Pelor reviews the petition and sees that the intent is good and true, but there's some "ding" related to the caster's level, or maybe he's already healed twice in the last five minutes, so he doesn't meet the criteria and Pelor stamps his petition denied. What kind of good guy is he then? Shouldn't he just help his legions of proxies whenever and however they need it? Powers schmowers.

"Flanders to God, Flanders to God, get off your cloud and save my Todd."
"Okely-dokely."

That's half-facetious, but really, why doesn't it pan out that way?

 

[Felon]

So, anyhoo, I like the invoker so far. It actually syncs up like up no other class has for a character concept I had while playing Fantasy HERO back in the eighties (right after Darkman came out). I created a character who was part of a sect known as demon-binders. This guy hated demons for possessing him and setting his home and family ablaze. His obsession led him to seek out any weapon any weapon he could to destroy demons wherever he might find them. He mortgaged his sould to the hilt, learned names and symbols of power both holy and profane.

When I drew the guy I basically adorned in all manner of runes and symbols; a pentagram pendant hanging alongside a crucifix. And his chief implement was even a staff, replete with ram-horned demon skull on top. Never really made him work in HERO (too many points) or other systems, because he wasn't a priest per se. I will try him out as an invoker.

 

[Rechan]

I realize this is a threadjack. So for the sake of convenience, I'll put this stuff behind a cut.

[sblock]

Hrmm... I don't think anyone is purposefully trying to say you're doing anything "wrong."

What I do think is that you're stating you dislike something, and why you dislike it. Others are pointing out that your premis for disliking it is based on incorrect assumptions (about how the gods in 4e opperate as per the book) and pointing out those incorrect assumptions. (Probably in an attempt to maybe show why they DO enjoy it.)

Well, I don't see them as "assumptions" (i.e. saying how they just are in RAW and in everyone's game) and more "This is a conscious choice of how I run/interpret this stuff for me."

We all know what the PHB fluff says. We all know what the rules are. That doesn't stop us from changing it.

You didn't state your issues with the invoker as just being incongruent with your homebrew campaign.

Not just my homebrew campaign, but the way I feel that things are, in D&D. I acknowledge that's different from you and the next guy, but it goes beyond "Setting" and just "This is how I believe it should be or is for me." Similar to how you would answer the question, "To you, what is a wizard? What makes a wizard? What is their relationship to magic?" This is just how gods are to me.

Not badwrongfun, just...bizarre if you're using divine powers as-is. For instance, let's say a Pelor cleric needs to do some healing urgently. Now, in your world Pelor personally evaluates every petty use of his power. So, Pelor reviews the petition and sees that the intent is good and true, but there's some "ding" related to the caster's level, or maybe he's already healed twice in the last five minutes, so he doesn't meet the criteria and Pelor stamps his petition denied. What kind of good guy is he then? Shouldn't he just help his legions of proxies whenever and however they need it?

Considering that the rules say Clerics can only use healing word twice in an encounter, it's not Pelor's fault unless one decided to make it Pelor's fault: Pelor is personally penalizing the Cleric because the cleric has used Healing Word twice this encounter, and thus Pelor says "Sorry, you tapped out your Five Minute allotment of petty healing. Please wait 5 minutes and heal again."

I didn't say that I personally consider the Gods as head bureaucrats and every single action is an executive decision (This isn't Exalted, where prayers are literal paperwork and the Gods are a literal giant Bureaucracy). I was trying to explain that a prayer for a blessing is different than raw divine magic in an analogy.

[sblock=Amusing Tangent]Not to get too close into people's religion, but I have seen the Catholic belief system in Saints explained like this: imagine Heaven as a big city. The Saints are in charge of various departments. Take Saint Jude for instance, who is the Patron of Hospitals and Desperate Situations, and they handle those related issues. When you pray to a Saint, the saint receives the prayer, and then he's supposed to take it to God, and this has some significance because the Saint is jockying for you. So if your kid is in the Hospital, you pray to Saint Jude, and Jude takes it to God, lobbying for you.[/sblock]
But the way I see Fluff As Written on Gods is also silly. So Pelor is this good guy, and he allows a cleric to bless another cleric, endowing Pelor's power into this other cleric, and then that cleric can go off and murder babies with Pelor's divine Magic, and Pelor isn't supposed to know about it or have any say about it? If Pelor can't receive prayers from farmers praying for safety from undead roaming the countryside, or doesn' tknow, then how is he supposed to ever be able to send help to those farmers seeking Aid?

In my interpretation, worship and prayer is power. Gods gain power from having worshipers; the more worshipers giving prayers or tribute, the more power they get. It's literal divine energy. A prayer isn't so much a note, as it is a chunk of energy with a context attached that filters up. Even Farmer Joe asking Pelor for a sunny day is power, because Farmer Joe wants it to happen and believes Pelor can do it. That's power.

I forget which FR novel it is, but it was said that Elminster knew when someone spoke his name, and he could hear what they said when they did it. I think this method is reasonable when it comes to Gods: They know when someone speaks their name. Further, they know the context of when someone invokes their name, and they know if some divine power of the God is being used in their name. To get around this knowledge takes some serious mojo or preparation (In the TV show "Reaper", the devil can hear anything, unless you are inside a circler structure at the time, because the Devil has no corner for his influence to enter.)

So a Cleric has the Divine Power in them, and it is fed from above (much like electricity in your house is piped in, ready for when you flick the switch). The Cleric doesn't need to get permission to use anything, but, the God knows when the Cleric uses that power, and why. So if the Cleric of Pelor is using the power inside of him to kill babies, then Pelor knows because those prayers are in his name.[/sblock]

 

[gribble]

In my interpretation, worship and prayer is power. Gods gain power from having worshipers; the more worshipers giving prayers or tribute, the more power they get. It's literal divine energy. A prayer isn't so much a note, as it is a chunk of energy with a context attached that filters up.

So why then, does the fluff behind an Invoker not work for you? You said it was because the Invoker could just use a gods power and not give anything back. If every power an Invoker uses is just a quick prayer to the appropriate god, why would they turn down that prayer/energy just because the Invoker wasn't a dedicated follower?

If anything, it seems to me that the Invoker fluff fits your interpretation pretty well...

 

[Rechan]

[sblock]

So why then, does the fluff behind an Invoker not work for you? You said it was because the Invoker could just use a gods power and not give anything back. If every power an Invoker uses is just a quick prayer to the appropriate god, why would they turn down that prayer/energy just because the Invoker wasn't a dedicated follower?

If anything, it seems to me that the Invoker fluff fits your interpretation pretty well...

Because of this:

So a Cleric has the Divine Power in them, and it is fed from above (much like electricity in your house is piped in, ready for when you flick the switch). The Cleric doesn't need to get permission to use anything, but, the God knows when the Cleric uses that power, and why. So if the Cleric of Pelor is using the power inside of him to kill babies, then Pelor knows because those prayers are in his name.

And this:

Pelor isn't faxing down any divine purification when Farmer Joe says grace - Joe can still die of food poisoning or choke to death on his food, after all. But he is faxing down that divine mojo on behalf of the Invoker.

The Invoker is acting like a Divine mercenary. He'll pray to anybody as long as they give him what he wants (blowing up doods and whathaveyou). The power his prayers are giving the God isn't, in my opinion, worth the juice he's asking for. The Cleric works for the God, spreads the God's word, he has an intimate relationship with that God; he deserves the God's divine power fresh, on tap.

If the God is going to give the Invoker that divine mojo for a simple prayer, why don't the gods give Farmer Joe that mojo to make his crops grow, instead of asking the Gods for a good harvest? And why become a Cleric, having to deal with the Church, and following strict rules of one God, when you can just become an Invoker and ask any convenient God for your power?[/sblock]