Mearls on Controller design and At-Will balance

[Lizard]

And did the Wizard remember to use his Mage Hand cantrip for opening and closing doors, drawing and withdrawning curtains and shutters on windows, move furniture out of the way of friends and into the way of enemies etc. etc.

No. You can do that as a minor action, can't you? Hmmm...

 

[Cadfan]

Wizards haven't had any effect on controlling the battlefield at all. They typically just do a little bit of damage to 1 or 2 people each round.

What amount of damage would stop being a "little bit?"

 

[eprieur]

Magic Missile is about half striker damage (6.75dpr vs 12-15dpr for strikers).
You need to constantly hit 2 targets with something like scorching burst to do "near" what a ranger would do with a twin strike + quarry attack or what a rogue would do with a sneak attack.

Each 1d6 + 6 damage is around 5.8 dpr. You need to be consistantly hitting 2 targets to be able to stay competitive versus strikers and at least 3 targets for each time you only hit 1. And note that at 3 targets you are barely over striker damage in the low levels. You really need 4 targets to get out of pact a bit. If you are constantly hitting 4 targets+ and are "rocking your campaign" then congratulation but I don't think it's representative of the long run. At least it wasn't certainly the case in my campaign when we had a wizard.

Example of something that would help wizard a ton would be to increase versatility on scorching burst so they can target either a burst 1 within 10 or (1 or 2 targets). That would make it more on part with the invokers stuff.

 

[Lacyon]

To be honest, I'm having trouble imagining a campaign set in tight spaces where AoE powers don't shine on a semi-regular basis.

I mean, in a wide open world, two bad guys charge the front-line dudes like so:

------
--BB--
--FF--
------

and the wizard can AoE them like this until one shifts like so:

------
---B--
-BFF--
------

at which point something has to change before wizzy can get any good action.

But if there's walls in the way:

|--|
|BB|
|FF|
|--|

I'm not sure why the wizard isn't regularly hitting multiple foes.

I mean, I can sure think of a lot of specific situations where he wouldn't be able to, I'm just not sure why they're happening more often than the basic ones.

 

[Mistwell]

That being said, guilty as charged, I do recommend taking a rock-paper-scissor approach to my at-will. Scorching Burts (reflex), Thunderwave (fort) and Illusory ambush (will).

I concur. And that is the set I went with. I suspect I will need to use skills that let me know the weaknesses of various foes to know which one to use, and they don't all apply all the time, but it's a really good set of at-wills in my opinion.

 

[Mistwell]

NEW SCORCHING BURST
Damage: 1d6 fire damage (plus see effect)

Effect: Target takes additional fire damage equal to the caster's Intelligence modifier at the end of its next turn, unless it spends a move action to extinguish the flames, which is automatically successful with no saving throw needed. This damage persists indefinitely until the target spends the required move action to end it. Additional applications of this effect from multiple castings of Scorching Burst do not stack.

I like it a lot.

 

[Mistwell]

that's nice, he's an 18 int, 10 Wis Half-elf, pumped Charisma to be the party diplomat. (I pumped mine for Intimidate, I'm a bad ass mofo). I think he's staff implement. At-wills are MM and Frost, Daily is Sleep/Acid Arrow, not sure about encounter.

He picked the two weakest at-wills. It's not surprising he isn't doing well.

Scorching bust tends to hit the most number of targets, even in confined quarters, provided you know how to center it.

Thunderwave hits the second most number of targets, and is good for close quarters, again assuming you know how to target and manipulate where it will go.

And even Cloud of Daggers is a better single-target at-will than either of the other two you mentioned, since it does more damage, and can block a smaller corridor in confined spaces.

And with a Staff and Leather Armor, your wizard can withstand some attacks at or near the front line to use those at-wills and targeting requirements.

So really, it's not the wizard who is bad in that situation, it's the poor choices your player made. He picked two weak at-wills intended for use on an open field. Magic Missile is for distant enemies (to hit them far away), and ray of frost is as well. (to slow them while they are at maximum range). Neither are good for close range fighting, neither are good for cramped conditions, and neither should be your "standard" attack as they only hit one target and you are not a striker.

 

[DracoSuave]

Not to mention he bumped Charisma rather than simply take Skill Training in Diplomacy.

Also, Staff+Leather+18 Int = Scale Mail armor. Buddy's sporting Fighter-sized AC here.

 

[Scholar & Brutalman]

He picked the two weakest at-wills. It's not surprising he isn't doing well.

Scorching bust tends to hit the most number of targets, even in confined quarters, provided you know how to center it.

Thunderwave hits the second most number of targets, and is good for close quarters, again assuming you know how to target and manipulate where it will go.

And even Cloud of Daggers is a better single-target at-will than either of the other two you mentioned, since it does more damage, and can block a smaller corridor in confined spaces.

Thunderwave and Cloud of Daggers aren't so hot when you've only got 10 Wisdom. It's IMO poor design that none of the wizard powers use Con or Dex for secondary modifiers. Hopefully they'll fix this as well when they make the wizard more controllery.

 

[Tony Vargas]

It isn't subpar as something you'd use once per combat. It is subpar when it is either you use Scorching Burst or X and your opponents are spread out.

I don't see how having the ability to toss a burst 1 once/encounter can be /better/ than being able to toss a burst 1 every round. That's just absurd on the face of it. Are you trying to say that there just isn't much call for area spells? Area spells don't just do damage (or put effects) on multiple enemies, they also bypass concealment and cover, and they act as area interdiction - that is, they keep enemies from staying in formation or bunching up to concetrate melee power on your front line. If you assume you always succeed at that, whether you actually have an AE or not, I suppose the value of area attacks isn't that great, anymore.

I don't think that's a safe assumption, though. A lot of monsters benefit from being adjacent to thier allies or ganging up on the same PC (over and above the usual advantage of concentrating damage on one victim). If monsters stay spread out, they're giving up those advantages - so well-played ones won't disperse unless forced to by the controller. After dispersing the enemy, the controller no longer dishes striker+ damage, but he's succeeded at his role.

What if one were to alter Scorching Burst as follows:
Damage: 1d6 fire damage (plus see effect)
Effect: Target takes additional fire damage equal to the caster's Intelligence modifier at the end of its next turn, unless it spends a move action to extinguish the flames, which is automatically successful with no saving throw needed. This damage persists indefinitely until the target spends the required move action to end it. Additional applications of this effect from multiple castings of Scorching Burst do not stack.

Interesting idea.

The more conventional way to write it up would be:

Hit: 1d6 fire damage, plus continuing fire damage equal to your INT modifier (target my use a move action to end).

The problem with the conventional mode is that continuing damage happens at the start of the victim's turn, so they'd almost always take the damage once. Actually, that's not so much a 'problem' if you want to upgrade Scorching Burst. Re-writing continuing damage rules for a specific power is always an option in an exception-based system, but IMHO, the game runs smoother if you try to avoid such things.

Or the secondary fire damage could be based on Wisdom, or Dexterity, or a flat amount, or another 1D6, or whatever. I'm not sure what would be best.

Basing it on DEX would make it a 'wand wizard power' - basing it on WIS would make it an 'orb wizard power' (and they already have /two/). A flat amount - 5 is most common, 2 is apropriate for a 'weaker' power - wouldn't be out of line. You might want to let INT add to the base damage, though, if you go for a flat amount, like 1d4+INT +2/continuing, OR:

Or maybe return the hit damage to 1D6+Int and just make the secondary damage 1 point per round. I dunno.

And should the effect happen only to those hit, or to everyone in the area? I'd think the latter would make it very potent, but maybe too powerful.

Only those hit, so it doesn't step on Cloud of Daggers.