How did you avoid spamming attacks in 3e combat?

Lets consider the meaning of the original topic here:

How did you avoid spamming attacks in 3E combat?

Think about that question for a moment. How many of us that played this game in the somewhat early days (1980's) sat around and wondered why we constantly spammed attacks in combat? Did we constantly try and figure out why our sword specialized fighter was always smacking enemies with his sword? I didn't waste any time thinking about that.

The concept of "spamming" comes from video games. ZOMG !! there were videogames around before 4E ;)

Its interesting to note that the notion of a fighter who is well trained in the use of a sword and uses it to defeat his enemies has come to be known as "attack spamming" rather than competently attacking.

When did doing something radically different every round in a combat become the norm and attacking with a weapon become "spamming" exactly?

It wasn't 4E since the OP is wondering how it was avoided in 3E.
 

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Wasn't the Big Six due mainly to the fact that players could actually choose their magic items and not actually have to spend major campaign time to create items?

I mean, if somehow we had a wealth by level table for 1e/2e, I'm almost positive that players would ignore the "decanter of endless water" style items for the girdle of giant strength....

That is an important factor. Another aspect is the concept of CR and similar difficulty measures - if you have these explicit measures, this requires you to make certain assumptions on what items are available, and gives you the chance to break these assumptions to gain an advantage or suffer a drawback. The Big Six basically mean you fulfilled the strongest assumptions the designers could have made - whether they actually did so, I don't know. And the reaction of adventure designers and DMs can become to also take this "worst-case" assumption and build their encounters on it.

Of course, this kind of escalation is only possible if items are easily made or gained. But if this is not easy, it just means all your attempts to measure things are useless - unless you ensure that all items have effects like Decanter of Endless Water or Folding Boats or "deal fire instead of slashing damage" instead of +4 to attack and damage.
 

If you can risk killing them, this works.

Absolutely. A typical lower level encounter in one of my games might pit the PC's against 5-10 goblins. Statistically, one or two of them are going to be hanging on at the end of a battle. Practically speaking, it matters little to my players whether they're interrogating Bolg (aka Goblin #1) or Snarga (Goblin # 4).

Obviously, playstyle, character build and encounter design can make the game more or less spammy. As pointed out above, the quickest way to get your players to look up the rules for a Bullrush is to put an enemy on the edge of a pit.

That said, IME, 3.X rewards specialization, whether that's a spiked-chain fighter specialzing in trips, a barbarian specializing in high damage, or even a wizard specializing in transmutation. Also IME, a player with a specialty spams that specialty. The fighter trips, the barbarian power attacks, the wizard casts baleful polymorph.

re: the big 6 they didn't all exist in 1E or 2E, the ones that did exist were harder to buy and harder to make. So less reliance on the big 6 in pre 3.X
 

I guess we can just chalk it up to differences in playstyle, then. . . In my games, the most common foes are humans (or other sentient races) with a sprinkling of "monsters" in order to keep them monstrous and awe-inspiring.
Yeah, there are differences, I just don't think they are THAT much different. We did discover that defeating humanoid opponents with classes is way too easy and rarely used them as enemies. Although we played a lot of Living Greyhawk where we had no control over what opponents we'd encounter and they'd vary dramatically. In addition to our home game, of course.

I'd like to address a couple of the specific examples.

The PCs often call for people to surrender, take prisoners, interogate, etc. . .
My players do as well. But evil people in my campaigns are Evil. They sacrifice their allies to save themselves, would rather die than see their plans fail, are unthinking brutes, are overconfident, are insane, and so on. They have every flaw that you see in movie villains. Most of them would rather die than tell the PCs any information if captured. The rest will lie to save their lives or don't know anything.

Often the PCs still take prisoners because they don't just want to kill everyone. But between bonuses to hit that are so high that taking the -4 to do nonlethal is no big deal and Merciful weapons, it is no real deterrent. Besides, it only proves my point that attacking(even for nonlethal) is a better option to defeat enemies than the other options.

- A bar brawl against drunk and surly locals
They've been in this situation. Attack with their weapons for nonlethal damage was the order of the day. Disarm and trip were wasted rounds when you could knock them all out and wake them up with healing spells while tied up later.

- Against normally peaceful lizardfolk who have a human captive. How do they save the captive, not raise the ire of the LF tribe and get the bottom of the confusion? The fight had an on-going negotiating factor, fighting to subdue and confusion between the PCs are to how to handle it.
An interesting situation. It likely would be handled by my players by either never starting a battle at all OR if given no choice, they'd simply hit every enemy in sight for non-lethal damage until they were all unconscious. While giving them a chance to surrender and making diplomacy rolls each round to try to stop the fighting.

- Against twistedly transformed foes that exploded into a caustic burst a round after death, requiring careful strategy in fighting them and being able to get out of the range when one was defeated.
It depends on how much damage they did and to how big of a radius. Once the first one hit and they knew how big they exploded, I don't see the group having any problem killing one, then spending the next round getting out of the area, then going back in to attack another one. Either that, or they'd simply take all the damage and have the cleric heal them back up to full the round after.

But I don't see the use in the other combat maneuvers here either. Bullrush is the only one I could see being handy, to move them away from the casters. Maybe a grapple and moving them away would also be useful. Grapple was our solution to an enemy that had similar burst damage in the past.

- Against a hopping/flying small dragon that would swoop in for attacks and then move away again.
Yeah, by necessity, they'd be forced to attack only once with readied actions. Either way, they'd be unlikely to use any other action. Maybe a grapple if someone in the group thought they were capable of succeeding.

- An ambush against a band of goblins and wargs in a wooded and hilly area, where they could afford to let none get away, requiring them to chase down the foes that fled and could lead them into their own possible ambush.
Guess I'm not seeing how this is resolved by using any of the other options either. If you hit and kill an enemy in one hit, it doesn't get the chance to run. If it runs, you can either run at the same speed as it until it stops or you can charge it if it doesn't get far enough away. If you run into another ambush, you kill everything that attacks you and move on.

You'll find that most players I've played with when faced with ambushes are actually happy to have them. Once I played with a group of players that were warned that they would be ambushed along the way to their destination. They discussed the situation for almost an hour of real time. In the end, the best plan they came up with was "We walk into the ambush, when they attack us, we kill them". And it worked. The battle was over in 2 rounds with the PCs taking minimal damage.

- A combat against skeletons in a room with an evil magic stone pulsed with evil energy causing vile damage every few rounds.
I guess you could smash the stone. It depends how much damage it did and how far it reached. Standard procedure in this case is:

-If it does less damage than the cleric can heal in a round, then ignore the damage and pretend it isn't even there

-If it does more damage than the cleric can heal in a round, then smash it or lure the monsters to a location that was safe to stand. Rule number 1: If the enemy can hit you, you can hit it. Use ranged weapons if necessary, but do damage as quickly as possible.

- A running battle fleeing on horseback from a bulette
In this case, we'd have to figure out why they were running. If they were running because they were too weak to fight a bullette, I'm fairly certain any player I know wouldn't be attacking at all. They wouldn't be using disarm, sunder, trip, bullrush, or grapple in this circumstance for sure.

If they were capable of defeating the bullette, they would have jumped off their horses and charged it in order to keep full attacking it until it was dead.

- a fight against guardians of tower seeking to keep the PCs from entering, but not using lethal force, led to both a fight to subdue and lots of grappling and bullrushing and overrunning to get past the obstacles.
Non-lethal pretty much always reads: if I take -4 to hit, I can take them out with damage to me(OR time to pull out my Merciful weapon). You can certainly attempt grapples and bullrushes. But, as I pointed out in the math, that even with the -4 to hit, it is better to full attack for 2 rounds and knock an enemy out with damage rather than spend two or three times as many rounds grappling him.

- A fight against a possessing shadow creature that used your own allies and companions against you.
Any time there is a possession or charm the procedure is to go full defensive until the cleric or wizard frees the person. As soon as the monster is in a state that allows it to be attacked, keep full attacking it until it dies.

- A battle in a shrine to a dark insect god that required navigating a maze of hedges to find the summoning circle where a young boy was tied to be the meal for the fiendish giant preying mantis to be summoned, where flanking archers atop tall stone pillars made movement dangerous.
Nothing that can't be solved with ranged weapons and full attacks. Although, I'm wondering in particular why movement was dangerous due to flanking archers.

- A battle in the treetop platforms of a bandit hideout, where bullrush was very useful in getting rid of foes by making them tumble over the side.
Almost every circumstance that I've found where an enemy could be bullrushed off of something, it was just as effective to attack for damage(if not more). The only time it is more useful is against enemies with more hitpoints than you can get through in one round who are significantly weaker than you are, standing next to a drop far enough down to kill them who you don't want to loot afterwords. It's a rather rare circumstance.
 

I think one of the issues of many combat maneuvers is that they bypass hit points. This can also be a problem for spells.

In regards to "effectiveness" the biggest issue here is that your trip/disarm/grappe doesn't "stack" with what regular attacks to.

To describe the extreme: Imagine every enemy has two hit point pools. You can attack to deal damage either to pool one or to pool two. The enemy can only be dropped if you reduce one of his pools to zero.

You really wouldn't want to have two characters attacking the enemy, each targeting a different hit point pool. That's a waste of time for one of the characters!

Any maneuver that doesn't - directly or indirectly - affect the same hit point pool as the other characters as a high potential of being worthless. And since you don't deal damage with maneuvers in 3E, the effects of the maneuver must compensate a lot of damage that you could inflict with a normal attack! Shoving your opponent of a height for 20 falling damage is good (if you normally deal less then 20 points of damage with your attack). Having avoided another attack for an average of 20 points thanks to the opponent now being 50 ft below you is also cool and adds to this pool. But if you just shove the enemy one square to move him into a corner or something, it sounds a lot less cool.


I think that's the reason why 4E powers all have this "damage + effect" - just knocking a target prone or shoving it around the battlefield doesn't cut it. You need a situation that guarantees that you can compensate the lost weapon damage from your maneuver. But of course, "maneuver + damage" is a little too strong, too, in may cases. So these maneuvers must be limited.

In 3E, things like AoOs and Countertrips/disarms provide a similar limitation, but unfortunately, they also mean they are less likely to succeed and rarely give enough benefit to be worth it. Until you have a way to negate all these disadvantages and it becomes a strong benefit.

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Spamming in 3E did happen a lot, and it wasn't limited to Fighters. Wizards and Sorcereres seemed to cast a lot of Magic Missiles in easier encounters. All the standard buff spells that we cast. (They were the same, even across characters, classes, levels and campaigns!) Of course, the latter is not spamming in combat.

I think we didn't avoid spamming attacks in 3e combat. Sometimes there were variations, like "my lowest iterative attack is a trip attempt!", but they were still very standard. But I wonder how much of a problem it was? The only thing I didn't like was the degree of specialization needed to have an effective character, and the number of options left unexplored because they just didn't lead to effectiveness.

As ExploderWizard asked, the more interesting question is why did we start worrying about Spamming?
 

At the risk of "badwrongfun," Majoru, I think your problem is you've "leveled up" in D&D so far that monsters aren't a challenge for you any more. If I were your DM I would multiply every monster's hit points by 2.5 until your combats actually lasted more than two rounds and you couldn't kill everything in one full attack. Then attacking something other than hit points would look more attractive to you.
 

At the risk of "badwrongfun," Majoru, I think your problem is you've "leveled up" in D&D so far that monsters aren't a challenge for you any more. If I were your DM I would multiply every monster's hit points by 2.5 until your combats actually lasted more than two rounds and you couldn't kill everything in one full attack. Then attacking something other than hit points would look more attractive to you.
Well, I've been the DM more often than I've been a player. However, we mostly played Living Greyhawk when we played. So, we had to run published adventures as written with no changes. We followed the rules of the game exactly as they were written and intended.

Sure, it's possible to multiply the hitpoints of all creatures by 2.5 in a home game, but the question was why people used the same attacks over and over again. The answer is: because if you play 3.5 edition as written, it was the most effective option. If you change the rules of the game, there are certainly solutions to it. I'm not sure multiplying hitpoints by itself is a solution mind you. Keep in mind that as long as an opponent has hitpoints in the game, they are a threat. Giving enemies more hitpoints just increases the need to do as many points of damage as quickly as possible rather than grappling or tripping(both of which STILL have a lower chance of succeeding and don't get you any closer to beating the enemies).
 

This is one of the things I think 4e did right, even if I don't agree with how they parsed out the ability to use powers according to encounter/daily powers. The actions in a 4e combat are a lot more varied, AND you still have the option to bull rush, disarm, grab, etc- AND you're not penalized for doing so.
That's not quite true. You cannot disarm at all, and bull rush and grab are significantly more difficult and less powerful than a typical attack.

Compare bull rush to Tide of Iron. Bull rush is Str vs. Fort (just Str, no proficiency bonus, no enhancement bonus) for push 1. Tide of Iron is Str vs. AC for push 1 and 1[W] + Str damage.

You'll still see "untrained" grabs or bull rushes in play (we used them last session), but it'll mostly be in unusual or desperate circumstances, just like in 3E.
 

Had a final boss fight last night. Dispatched the elite boss's cronies, dailies expended to either do crappy damage or miss altogether,
Crappy damage is certainly possible, but dailies never miss altogether.

and the next half hour was just chipping away with at-wills, while the BBEG in turn fired back his basic attack.
His basic attack didn't have any special effect? He didn't have any situational powers that hinged on the special effect created by his basic attack (so that he has to hit with basic to use the more powerful ability)? He didn't have any rechargeable powers?
 

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