D&D 4E How to build encounters in 4e (aka Only you can prevent Grindspace!)

[hailstop]

Awesome thread. It in fact, convinced me to finally ditch the published modules and go with one of my own (with some liberal stealing of encounters from H3).

The PC's hadn't fought much undead lately, so I sent them into a tomb on the way to find a second entrance to a shrine to Vecna taken over by a member of the Blood of Vol.

Of course then the Paladin PC tells me on the ride to the session that he's swapping out his Paladin for a Swordmage.

Still, the look on the player's faces when they opened the set of double doors to see a massive room full of more than two dozen zombies was classic.

A couple of points.

1. I can't remember if it was mentioned in the tips above, but it's important to give the PC's a reason to move. In this case, I knew the PC's first instinct would be to either close the door and flee or remain in the cooridor as a defensive position. (They had just had a minor ass-handing to them in the entrance encounter by two Trap Haunts, a Flamejet trap and two Flaming Skulls).

So a couple of elements were added to the room: a Skull Lord and 2 Corruption Corpses on a 20' high landing accessable by stairs, and 2 Lasher Zombies (the Zombie Dragon article yesterday was very timely.

Because of those elements, the PC's did actually enter the room.

2. Again I can't remember where it was mentioned, but the tip of dynamically adjusting hp was great. The PCs had been getting their butts collectively kicked by a Zombie Hulk (who in the previous round had criticaled the Rogue with a Zombie Smash...37 pts damage...yikes), and the Warlord set him up so that the Hulk would get hit for a critical on a 18-20. The Hulk went down that round but because of it's ability it got back up again the next round. The Warlord then used one of his big powers (not sure if it was a daily or not), and rolled an 18. That would have taken the Hulk down to 5 hp, but I decided just to kill it off.

I can't think of when I heard a cheer resound around the table like that in a long time.

But I'm loving the fact that I can throw everything I've got at the PC's without worrying about pulling punches. By designing my own encounters I've also upped the threat level a bit...the first combat had two PC's drop, the second (so far) has had the Swordmage drop (although he's by himself with the Skull Lord...fortunately he rolled a 20 on his death save).

But that, IMO, was one of the best sessions we've had in 4e, if not the best.

 

[Nail]

So a couple of elements were added to the room: a Skull Lord and 2 Corruption Corpses on a 20' high landing accessable by stairs, and 2 Lasher Zombies (the Zombie Dragon article yesterday was very timely.

Because of those elements, the PC's did actually enter the room.

I don't understand. Why would they find entering the room more tactically advantageous when there are ranged opponents in the room?

I'm beginning to think that the S.O.P. of all PCs should be "open door, step back about 3 squares, and let them come to you".

 

[hailstop]

I don't understand. Why would they find entering the room more tactically advantageous when there are ranged opponents in the room?

I'm beginning to think that the S.O.P. of all PCs should be "open door, step back about 3 squares, and let them come to you".

The party is largely made up of melee types.

Warlord
2-weapon Ranger
Rogue
Paladin (now Swordmage)

Warlock (who wasn't there last night)
Wizard

 

[Vayden]

Awesome thread. It in fact, convinced me to finally ditch the published modules and go with one of my own (with some liberal stealing of encounters from H3).

Great to hear! Keep it up, it's a lot of fun. And steal from everywhere you can find stuff - check out the threads in the storyhour section here for some inspiration too. I recommend Piratecat's, anything by JonRog, and Shemeska's, though I'm sure there's good ones I've missed.

Still, the look on the player's faces when they opened the set of double doors to see a massive room full of more than two dozen zombies was classic.

Always a great feeling. My players are getting pretty cocky after everything they've survived - I'm going to have to find a way to take it up another notch to see that look on their faces again.

Anyway, haven't been playing much lately due to a combination of holidays/new playstation/workworkwork. I did play in a paragon game a friend is running, and it got really grindy. I'm going to be DMing some paragon tier myself in a week, so I'll try and get some paragon specific tips up here once I've had a couple sessions of it to get the feel of it.

 

[cjais]

I don't understand. Why would they find entering the room more tactically advantageous when there are ranged opponents in the room?

I'm beginning to think that the S.O.P. of all PCs should be "open door, step back about 3 squares, and let them come to you".

Usually, the only characters with capable ranged weapons in a party is the wizard, and he's also the one who's best equipped to deal with minions. So if there's artillery in the back of the room pounding the party, that wizard is being forced to decide between clearing out all the little guys, or ensuring that the party survives in the long run by killing the artillery.

Artillery is great for drawing the party in, as they're usually quite vulnerable to attack, and deal bucketloads of damage if left to themselves. The party simply can't afford to "step back into the hallway and hold them off" - the melee front will be whittled down by both artillery fire and the wave of melee enemies going for them.

 

[DrSpunj]

Artillery is great for drawing the party in, as they're usually quite vulnerable to attack, and deal bucketloads of damage if left to themselves. The party simply can't afford to "step back into the hallway and hold them off" - the melee front will be whittled down by both artillery fire and the wave of melee enemies going for them.

Agreed! This was exactly the situation my party faced in last week's session with Blazing Skeletons at the top of stairways and platforms and Chillborn Zombies & Skeleton Minions littering the main floor making it difficult for the party to rush the stairs.

I think the general party consensus was to "step back into the hallway and whittle them down" but the Blazing Skellies ranged flame attack has a range of 10 and the only way any PC could attack at that range (aside from the Ranger with her bow) was to be on the front line to trade shots with them. That would put them, of course, up front with the Zombies & Minions where most non-Defenders just aren't likely to last all that long. I thought the fight was going to turn into a grindy slugfest that would almost assuredly end with the party retreating outright or a TPK if they started this way and then tried to change tactics in the middle of the fight after realizing it wouldn't work all that well. (Someone commented at one point, "let's pull them into the corridor" but the mobs weren't going to leave that room!)

Thankfully the Cleric of Kord charged into the room (as usual ) and Nail's Fighter followed him in to protect him and establish a front line which pulled the rest of the party in. Unfortunately for the Cleric & Nail, most of the rest of the party hung back for several rounds which only left the two of them as targets for all the mobs, both ranged and melee, for nearly too long. However with some key smart plays and a few lucky rolls they managed to not lose anyone and emerge victorious! And there was much rejoicing.

I'm not sure if we need to number all the tips but this battle taught me to try and avoid too many similar monster effects. By that I mean with the Chillborn Zombie Auras doing cold damage at the start of PCs turns, along with both their Cold ongoing damage attacks & the Blazing Skeleton Fire ongoing damage attacks, Nail's poor Fighter and the Cleric of Kord were really getting hit with all kinds of hurt every round. With the rest of the party not moving in all that quick to help them and take their fair share of the hurt, and the Chillborn Zombie's Immobilize effect keeping them from moving back I had them unwittingly pinned pretty well. There was also a great deal of the players' time spent adding & subtracting markers from both PC & enemy minis, and we're still trying to figure out the best way to track all those conditions from round to round!

BTW, thanks much to Vayden for starting this thread and to everyone else who's posted with their own advice. Originally this encounter was using those same mobs straight out of the MM, but after reading this thread I lowered the levels on all the non-Minion mobs and increased their numbers by 50-75%. For my party of eight 2nd level PCs this was a much better encounter that was exciting & fun! As it was originally I'm pretty sure they would have just been frustrated and/or died against the Chillborn Zombies soldierly high AC.

So, a big Thank you!

 

[Nail]

Good summary of what we faced and how it went down, DrSpunj. Speaking as a player in his game, I think DrSpunj's "tweaks" (more monsters, lower levels) made it much more fun.

 

[Nail]

I don't understand. Why would they find entering the room more tactically advantageous when there are ranged opponents in the room?

I'm beginning to think that the S.O.P. of all PCs should be "open door, step back about 3 squares, and let them come to you".

The party is largely made up of melee types.

Usually, the only characters with capable ranged weapons in a party is the wizard, and he's also the one who's best equipped to deal with minions. So if there's artillery in the back of the room pounding the party, that wizard is being forced to decide between clearing out all the little guys, or ensuring that the party survives in the long run by killing the artillery.

False diachotomy. Draw the melee monsters into the hallway, out of line-of-effect from the artillery and in range of the melee PCs. When the monsters break, then charge in and clean up.

In my other game (where I play a tac-lord), we do this often.

 

[cjais]

False diachotomy. Draw the melee monsters into the hallway, out of line-of-effect from the artillery and in range of the melee PCs. When the monsters break, then charge in and clean up.

In my other game (where I play a tac-lord), we do this often.

Sure, that's a good tactic. I can't see why they would leave their fire support behind however, if they're an organised and intelligent force.

As the enemy usually has more ranged firepower than the party, I'm thinking I should actually just have them stand back and let the party come to them.

 

[Nail]

Sure, that's a good tactic. I can't see why they would leave their fire support behind however, if they're an organised and intelligent force.

Concider: It's what PCs do all the time. Why should the monsters be any different?