Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder overhaul suggestions, pt. 2

[humble minion]

The more I think about this the closer I get to leaving buffs alone, and focusing on dispel magic instead.

I've got the feeling (completely unsupported by playtesting or maths, but hey, this is a messageboard...) that while this might help fix the mathematical problems that the 3.x/pathfinder system has at high levels once multiple buffs are layered on everyone, it wouldn't touch (and may even worsen) the whole must-recalculate-my-entire-character-sheet-sorry-this'll-take-45-mins issue. Fixing dispelling without addressing buff layering just means that buffs will be going up and down more often, with the inevitably increased amount of recalculation that would involve...

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I've got the feeling (completely unsupported by playtesting or maths, but hey, this is a messageboard...)

Erm, and also completely unsupported by any knowledge of what I intend to do with dispel magic? But I am certainly curious what you think I had in mind.

In your opinion (everyone) what do you think distinguishes the high-level buff play from the low-level buff play?

 

[Scott DeWar]

Erm, and also completely unsupported by any knowledge of what I intend to do with dispel magic? But I am certainly curious what you think I had in mind.

In your opinion (everyone) what do you think distinguishes the high-level buff play from the low-level buff play?

I will have to pass on this question as our 3.5/pathfinder game is only level 6 with a good bit befoe 7.

 

[humble minion]

Erm, and also completely unsupported by any knowledge of what I intend to do with dispel magic? But I am certainly curious what you think I had in mind.

Yes, that too - I have more than enough complete ignorance to go round!

My general though process is as follows (it may or may not be applicable to what you're planning to do with dispels, of course):
- higher-level casters have access to a lot of buffs
- higher-level buffs have a pretty long duration
- teleport etc means that it's very possible to cast your buffs pre-combat and a long way away from any bad guys, when they're in no danger of being dispelled.
- all this means that at higher levels, pcs will enter most combats with their buffs up. Dispel rules of any sort will only come into play at this point, once the bad guys are within spell range. And by this time the PCs have already had to do all the character-sheet-recalculation due to the original buffing. And any dispelling (no matter what the dispelling mechanic) or suppression or replacement of buffs from this point on will only require more of that recalculation.

I'm just not sure how dispelling rules of any sort can get around this, to be honest. Though of course I have no idea if getting around this is a priority of your thoughts on dispelling at all, mind you!

In your opinion (everyone) what do you think distinguishes the high-level buff play from the low-level buff play?

Firstly, the sheer number of buffs. Secondly, the fact that there's enough buffs available for every party member, and not just buffs that might be more tailored to the specific situation (at lower levels, the fighter might get the only available Death Ward when going against vampires because he's going to be up close and personal, while the wizard might just stay out of the way and rely on mirror image). At higher levels, there's Death Wards for everyone who wants one). Thirdly, at high levels the availability of teleportation magic, the buff-scry-teleport tactic, and higher caster levels meaning increased buff durations means that a party is more likely to have all its buffs active from the start of every combat.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

My general though process is as follows (it may or may not be applicable to what you're planning to do with dispels, of course):
- higher-level casters have access to a lot of buffs
- higher-level buffs have a pretty long duration
- teleport etc means that it's very possible to cast your buffs pre-combat and a long way away from any bad guys, when they're in no danger of being dispelled.
- all this means that at higher levels, pcs will enter most combats with their buffs up.

Agreed on all of that.

Now-- where is the problem?

Dispel rules of any sort will only come into play at this point, once the bad guys are within spell range. And by this time the PCs have already had to do all the character-sheet-recalculation due to the original buffing.

Out of combat. So far so good. My players may be unusual, but they actually enjoy strategizing and going over all the buffs everyone is getting.

And any dispelling (no matter what the dispelling mechanic) or suppression or replacement of buffs from this point on will only require more of that recalculation.

How much recalculation, and when-- I think that's the issue.

I'm just not sure how dispelling rules of any sort can get around this, to be honest. Though of course I have no idea if getting around this is a priority of your thoughts on dispelling at all, mind you!

I'm going to lay the Nerfhammer down on dispel magic. Hard.

Firstly, the sheer number of buffs.

Wait! Why is the sheer number of buffs a problem? Be specific.

Secondly, the fact that there's enough buffs available for every party member, and not just buffs that might be more tailored to the specific situation (at lower levels, the fighter might get the only available Death Ward when going against vampires because he's going to be up close and personal, while the wizard might just stay out of the way and rely on mirror image). At higher levels, there's Death Wards for everyone who wants one).

This is a little more easy to read. You're concerned that the buffs are making the PCs too tough? Throwing off your ELs?

If not, be specific. Why is it a problem if everyone has a Death Ward?

(That might lead into a separate conversation about 'absolutes.' I'd be happier with Death Ward if it were ablative.)

Thirdly, at high levels the availability of teleportation magic, the buff-scry-teleport tactic, and higher caster levels meaning increased buff durations means that a party is more likely to have all its buffs active from the start of every combat.

So why not revise teleport? Isn't that much simpler than piling up subsystems to deal with the buffs?

Teleport strips away your buffs; Teleport leaves you stunned; Teleport is less accurate; etc.

 

[ruemere]

Wulf,

I have been specifically toying with changing Dispel Magic: Area to:
- d20 + your caster level = dispel total
- start dispelling effects going from highest caster level effect to lowest
- you automatically dispel effect with caster level lower or equal to your dispel total, however, for every effect dispelled, you reduce the dispel total by the caster level of the effect you dispelled.

For example, Tadhg, caster level 12, casts Dispel Magic targeting area. He rolls 13 on d20 for a dispel total of 25.
Within area there are 4 spell effects: Forbiddance (caster level 17), Wall of Ice (caster level 11), Bull Strength #1 (caster level 5), Bull Strength #2 (caster level 5).
Tadhg dispels Forbiddance. His dispel magic total is reduced to 8.
Tadhg fails to dispel Wall of Ice since his dispel magic total is lower than 11.
Tadhg randomly chooses which Bull Strength is dispelled, the other continues.

Could you comment on this subsystem?

Regards,
Ruemere

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Could you comment on this subsystem?

My wife is bugging me for the computer , so for right now it will probably be easier for me just to comment on what I think dispel magic should do. Off the top of my head (and possibly forgetting a few things I worked out with my colleague the other day):

1) Act as a counterspell to any other spell (as a reaction to the opponent's casting)

2) As a standard action, dispel one spell (use Spellcraft if you want to be able to identify and specify a specific active spell)

3) With a 1 minute casting time, dispel all effects in the area or on the target subject.

I haven't sorted out the specifics on the caster level check yet, but it will likely be a check against the spell level as opposed to the caster level-- so you don't have to jot down the caster level of every spell that is in effect.

 

[ruemere]

I view Dispel Magic as means to prevent rocket tag game (i.e. I shoot first = I win) the spellcasters often play in d20. There are not enough magical defenses in my opinion... for example, I would allow Dispel Magic to be used as immediate action (just like Feather Fall) to allow a chance to stop an incoming arcane doom.

Regards,
Ruemere

 

[Nikosandros]

There are not enough magical defenses in my opinion... for example, I would allow Dispel Magic to be used as immediate action (just like Feather Fall) to allow a chance to stop an incoming arcane doom.

I like this idea. IME, counterspelling is almost never done with the normal rules.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I view Dispel Magic as means to prevent rocket tag game (i.e. I shoot first = I win) the spellcasters often play in d20. There are not enough magical defenses in my opinion... for example, I would allow Dispel Magic to be used as immediate action (just like Feather Fall) to allow a chance to stop an incoming arcane doom.

Regards,
Ruemere

Yes, counterspelling is very different from what it is in a game like Shadowrun. In Shadowrun 3E, you could hold back dice from your magic pool and your skill to roll them against enemies spells. It was an important defense against magic, because otherwise, enemy mages would get their skill + magic pool vs their victims willpower, which basically gives them an advantage of 6 dice or so.

Easier counterspelling might be actually the best option to "nerf" spellcasters without really nerfing them.
Imagine counterspelling was always an immediate action, and Dispel Magic gave you more flexibility. (Maybe it shouldn't be just as easy as expending the slot, maybe you'd want a caster level roll.) The spellcaster has still all the firepower he used to have, but it can be countered more easily, and he will want to use it for that purpose, too...