D&D 4E Are humans balanced in 4e?

[keterys]

When someone wanted to play a human paladin in my game I just offered them a couple at-wills from other classes as alternatives, since clearly there just weren't enough current options.

Like I think I said he could get Priest's Shield as a Cha-based, Tide of Iron as Str based... couple others. Made a couple others up too.

Once Divine Power is out, human paladins will work out a lot better most likely.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

I am also, by getting the free skill pick and using my freed up feat slot to purchase another skill, the party skill monkey. Diplomacize the good guys, Intimidate the bad ones, and even find traps better than the party rogue.

Yes, CHA and WIS are tied to some of the most useful skills for the party, aren't they? It does make the CHA paladin very useful for skill challenge in general, especially if your striker is something like a brutal scoundrel or a ranger while your leader is a tactical warlord...

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If I had a human paladin player, I'd probably try to come up with a third at-will.

I noticed that none of the CHA based at will have the radiant key word (whereas one of teh STR at will does!) so I would fix that.

Something like :

Sword of Truth
At-Will ✦ Divine,Weapon, Radiant
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Charisma vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Charisma modifier damage. If you marked the
target, it shines a light with an aura of 2 that negates concealment and reveals invisible creature.

 

[Herschel]

Well, I don't know about anybody else, but I don't have any human characters simply because I play LFR and have chosen to treat character creation for that campaign with all the seriousness it deserves. Dragonmen as PC! And monsters! And more monsters! And giant freakin' robots! Yeah. This isn't remotely a serious campaign (which is almost inevitable, since this isn't a serious game system), so why should I bother with creating characters that fit into the world? The whole world doesn't fit into the world.

But templated half-dragons were better?!?!?!?

 

[Herschel]

Yes, CHA and WIS are tied to some of the most useful skills for the party, aren't they? It does make the CHA paladin very useful for skill challenge in general, especially if your striker is something like a brutal scoundrel or a ranger while your leader is a tactical warlord...

Well said.

I rolled up a melee ranger for my new LFR character and put him to the test yesterday and he was nigh useless in the skill challenges. (Str/Int Genasi w/ Leather and twin War Axes to test what some call "broken", which I find silly.) I'd wait around until there was something I could do in them where I wasn't clearly outshined by another. Sure, I could lay down some damage in melee, but that Will of 11 did me no favors.

 

[nittanytbone]

My biggest problem with humans is that one of their main features, a third at-will, is often wasted. Additionally, their bonus feat is handy, but doesn't scale well with tier. If you're playing at levels 1-6, its great, but above that, its kind of wasted.

One of my house rules for humans is:
- Instead of gaining an extra at-will power, select an encounter power from your class of your level or lower. You may use this power as a daily power; change the keyword to "Daily."

Of course, the release of new splats with new at-will options may make this obsolete but I think its good enough. Just like half-elves are all jacks of all trades to some degree, humans are supposed to be universally competent. This minor modification achieves that goal.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

The extra feat is never obsolete or wasted.

It's always one bonus that a similar non-human character can't do.

You don't compare that bonus against the fact that at level 10 you have 6 feat as a human vs 5 feat for a non human. You compare that extra feat against the fact that a Dragon Born has +2 to Intimidate and History whereas you have an extra feat, for example. Which do you prefer?

Try to build, say, a human and a dragon born fighter. Use the same distribution of stats, go for the same powers, select the same feats (except for that extra one). No matter how you look at it, the human will have one more feat and the bonus from that feat will always be a net bonus over the near identical DB.

Saying that the bonus feat loses value is comitting the same error of logic as saying that +1 to hit loses value as you increase in level.

 

[Uruush]

I don't think anyone's mentioned the Stubborn Survivor feat (FRPG) yet. If Human Perseverance is good, Stubborn Survivor is even better. I'm the only human in my party right now (the others are all doing the Eladrin thing for thematic reasons). I have no problem spending my Action Point in the first or second round of the first combat encounter on any given day (the rest of the party can save theirs for if things get hairy later). And you don't even have to spend it quickly if you don't want to. You could totally wait until you have some nasty ongoing damage or status effect and then spend your AP. Probably a good time for it anyway. 8 or higher for saves? 20, 19, OR 18 to pop back up from dying to back in the fight with three chances at it? Yes, please.

I don't see anyone undervaluing Action Surge, but I don't think the potency of +1 to FORT, REF, WILL can be overstated. It is pure gold.

I think humans are at least just right, and I'd even consider them for builds that only have two decent At-Wills.

 

[nittanytbone]

Rather than give humans a bonus feat and super-awesome racial feats, I'd ALMOST prefer to give them a menu of options.

"Choose one of these: +3 on attack rolls when using an AP, +1 on saving throws, stubborn survivor bennies, etc."

I don't like giving players the option to suck, and a human that doesn't pick one of those feats is really probably short changing himself.

 

[keterys]

Eh, many classes, especially at low level when feats are in demand, the human specific feat is not the best option.

 

[Danceofmasks]

@nittanytbone
Many human builds having to pick one of those feats would suck.
Bonus feat is one of the most awesome racial features ever.

The reason many human builds are awesome is 'cos they can stack feats.
Such as a human leader that takes two defensive proficiency feats right off the bat .. or a rogue that takes nimble blade and backstabber so they can be a match for a 20/16 build .. or ..

Ok, actually, I reckon the +1 to fort, ref, will is their best feature.
In comparison, for most builds, the extra at-will option is nigh-useless.
But .. bonus feat is right up there.