D&D 4E Are humans balanced in 4e?

[Elder-Basilisk]

Given the expanded importance of secondary stats with new classes and builds (battlerager, barbarian, etc), feats (Marked Scourge, etc), paragon paths (Son of Mercy, etc), as well as concept essential racial feats for other races (Draconic Arrogance for example assures that Dragonborn simply make better push focused martial characters than humans, period and end of story), I don't think there is really design space for humans to be better than second (or third, fourth, or fifth in the case of options like a strength/con fighter) loser for any class or concept.

You can disagree with me if you wish but I think that 4th edition play numbers bear out that such is the case. (And if anyone thinks that players as a whole choose their character concepts for non-power focused reasons, I would like to see how they explain why post FRPG strength clerics and paladins all seem to worship Tempus. (My argument is that the reason they do this is that Righteous Rage of Tempus is crazy-broken-good and few players will pass up a power boost to play a cleric or paladin of Selune, Ilmatar, Torm, Sharess, etc)).

The long and the short of it is that a bonus at-will is always inferior to a decent racial encounter power and that +2 to any stat is always inferior to a single targeted +2. In an environment where you have a near-unlimited number of races, there is always one that will be better than humans at any given role. Therefore, humans see little play in fourth edition and will see less and less play as time goes on.

 

[Spatula]

Additionally, their bonus feat is handy, but doesn't scale well with tier. If you're playing at levels 1-6, its great, but above that, its kind of wasted.

The human bonus feat is retrainable just like any other feat.

 

[Moon-Lancer]

you cant retrain lower level feats for higher level feats. however i think some of the lower level feats are some of the best feats. like power attack or weapon focus,

 

[Danceofmasks]

@Elder-Basilisk

On the subject of LFR clerics and paladins, the campaign rules introduce a restriction (that doesn't normally exist) saying you must worship a deity, and only one deity.
Conveniently, pantheons no longer exist, so the most common reason for venerating multiple deities is gone, but it's still an artificial construct.

At a recent con, I saw 3 clerics.
1 cleric of tempus but used to be cleric of gruumsh, before they changed the creation guidelines to state that evil deities are not permitted. Ok, it's my cleric, but hey ... I don't have righteous rage, and I'm not intending to take it anytime soon, I just wanted a "kill stuff good" deity 'cos I can't have gruumsh.
2 cleric of garl glittergold, 'cos giving other people rerolls is crazy strong. Sure, ok .. that's the same reason for taking tempus, but *shrug*
3 cleric of amaunator. It's +5.5 average damage to a radiant AoE, so it's not bad, but most of the channel divinity feats in the FRPG are better than the PHB ones anyway.

I also saw 2 paladins.
1 paladin of tempus. Crits stuff good.
2 paladin of sune. Well, it was poorly built, so any powergamy intentions can be disregarded.
Apparently, there was a third paladin I didn't see, but knowing the player, it was likely to be poorly built, and female (the player is male).

So at least down under, we're not all powergamers.

 

[Danceofmasks]

you cant retrain lower level feats for higher level feats. however i think some of the lower level feats are some of the best feats. like power attack or weapon focus,

You can ... phb p28, feat subsection of retraining
"... You can replace heroic tier feats (see page 193) with higher-tier feats, but only one at a time, once per level you gain. ..."

Oh yeah, in case ppl didn't know, that also means you can't retrain paragon tier feats for epic tier feats, but you can retrain heroic tier feats for epic ...

 

[Spatula]

you cant retrain lower level feats for higher level feats.

"You can replace heroic tier feats with higher-tier feats..." PHB pg 28. You might be thinking of retraining powers.

edit: beaten to the punch!

 

[nittanytbone]

Eh, many classes, especially at low level when feats are in demand, the human specific feat is not the best option.

This is exactly what I'm getting at... Especially at low level. Once you get to the higher levels, you have plenty of feats running around and while one more is handy, its not a huge boost like it was at first level.

When you only have one feat (at first level), getting another one DOUBLES your feats. When you only have two feats (at second level), its still a significant boon.

At level 14, when you have 9 feats, getting another one is nice but relatively minor. In Epic tier its hardly noticeable -- "What, one more feat? I already have 14..."

 

[Mad Hamish]

This is exactly what I'm getting at... Especially at low level. Once you get to the higher levels, you have plenty of feats running around and while one more is handy, its not a huge boost like it was at first level.

When you only have one feat (at first level), getting another one DOUBLES your feats. When you only have two feats (at second level), its still a significant boon.

At level 14, when you have 9 feats, getting another one is nice but relatively minor. In Epic tier its hardly noticeable -- "What, one more feat? I already have 14..."

Gee, I've done scans through for my elven Archer Ranger all the way and I'm having huge problems cutting the list down.
I'd love an additional feat or two (admittedly not enough to drop dex and wis, lose the shifting over difficult terrain and the reroll on missed attacks)...