Forked Thread: Preview: The Shaman, the first broken class.

[Blizzardb]

The spirit can't move further than 20 squares from the shaman. While it is a good range, the goblins could probably find the shaman quickly and deal with him since he needs line of sight and line of effect to make it. This is no different than a wizard casting a flaming sphere or a stinking cloud in the village and moving it around.

So no, it's not broken from what I can tell.

Good point. It really looks pretty much the same as a wizard summoning a conjuration such as the Flaming Sphere (that even can't be harmed at all and hits automatically nearby creatures).

 

[DEFCON 1]

I always find it amusing that someone can read a preview and within 15 minutes claim "they've gone against their own internal math"! As though the reader somehow knows exactly how the math formulas actually work and can do them instantly in his head... whereas the design department and playtesters have somehow missed this fact in the nine to twelve months of design and development.

Please. Get over yourself. Stop thinking the developers are idiots and that you know better than they do. You don't.

 

[Rel]

I always find it amusing that someone can read a preview and within 15 minutes claim "they've gone against their own internal math"! As though the reader somehow knows exactly how the math formulas actually work and can do them instantly in his head... whereas the design department and playtesters have somehow missed this fact in the nine to twelve months of design and development.

Please. Get over yourself. Stop thinking the developers are idiots and that you know better than they do. You don't.

I don't care how wrong you think the OP is or how much you believe him to be jumping the gun. You are, I hope, capable of making your disagreement known in a more polite fashion.

 

[Shroomy]

There's this rule called "line of effect" that prevents exactly these sort of shennanigans, not to mention the range limit, economy of actions (it can't attack or move without you spending the action), and the damage you'd take from when its destroyed.

 

[Thasmodious]

I will politely say that I agree with Defcon. Every single time a class preview has come out someone starts a "this class is clearly broken" thread with the same level of flimsy, unsupported "evidence" as the assessment here.

 

[Runestar]

I will politely say that I agree with Defcon. Every single time a class preview has come out someone starts a "this class is clearly broken" thread with the same level of flimsy, unsupported "evidence" as the assessment here.

Well, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are incorrect. For example, we do have an interesting case of the beastmaster apparently being unkillable at epic lvs so long as he parks his animal companion somewhere safely away. I am not sure that is what the designers intended, but it is possible nonetheless.

When 4e was first previewed, I recall there being a lot of hoohaa over the rings being paragon only. That got scrapped in the end, so apparently, the people making the most noise over it said something right (though it is possible that the designers also made a decision independent of the gleemax boards). Would you rather everyone kept quiet and then make a fuss only when the PHB had been released, and the rule irrevocable?

I find it funny that the best defense one can muster is "You know nuts. But I know just as little as you apparently, so I will just tell you to shut up instead of trying to refute your arguments directly". Isn't the whole point of these previews to generate debate and discussions? In the meantime, the designers can collect feedback, identify potential issues with said class' design and nip them in the bud before the supplement gets released.

Better this than everyone adopting a "wait and see" attitude, IMO.

I always find it amusing that someone can read a preview and within 15 minutes claim "they've gone against their own internal math"! As though the reader somehow knows exactly how the math formulas actually work and can do them instantly in his head... whereas the design department and playtesters have somehow missed this fact in the nine to twelve months of design and development.

That has its roots back in 3e. But they have been right more often than not. The trend has been that we, the players, tend to be as good as, if not better than the designers at critiquing the material and spotting problematic aspects.

Yes, we have had our mystic theurge moments, but overall, the track record has been fairly accurate, IIRC.

The designers are the ones who supposedly know the game best, but they too are human. Look at the whole slew of mistakes in 4e, the list of errata so far, and the backlog of errors/imbalanced waiting to be corrected. Apparently, yes, they did overlook the blade cascade combo despite having worked on it for years, while presumably "ignorant" players discovered it within days of 4e's release.

Funny because I just had a player use an artificer this past weekend and it was not broken at all.

It is broken in the sense that it appears to be a little weaker than the other leaders, not that it breaks the game.

 

[Spatula]

When 4e was first previewed, I recall there being a lot of hoohaa over the rings being paragon only. That got scrapped in the end

I seem to recall that in the preview, you could only wear 1 ring at paragon and 2 at epic, which did get scrapped. But if you look at the levels of the available rings, you'll see that they are indeed still paragon+ only in effect.

I agree with your post, though. No one even mentioned "the internal math" - the OP was complaining about a perceived exploit of the rules - so DEFCON wasn't even addressing anything here... just popping off.

 

[Dragonblade]

For example, we do have an interesting case of the beastmaster apparently being unkillable at epic lvs so long as he parks his animal companion somewhere safely away.

Just as an aside, I don't think that it is a big deal to have unkillable epic characters. The Dark Wanderer epic destiny, for example, literally makes a PC totally unkillable. No matter how they die, they show up 12 hours later with all their possessions in a location of the player's choosing.

 

[Dausuul]

Good point. It really looks pretty much the same as a wizard summoning a conjuration such as the Flaming Sphere (that even can't be harmed at all and hits automatically nearby creatures).

Of course, flaming sphere is crazy powerful for its level, almost on par with sleep. The other two first-level wizard dailies are pathetic by comparison.

 

[The_Fan]

The most important things preventing this are line of effect and range. It has a range 20, which is admittedly pretty long. However, it's not "I hang out at camp and send it over to the goblin village" long. Also, it requires line of effect, which means you have to have an unbroken line to it. A wall, the bend in a tunnel, or even a small hut could break that line, practically necessitating that the enemy is able to see you.