The Problem of Evil [Forked From Ampersand: Wizards & Worlds]

[Jasperak]

Yes! Supernatural evil is great and could fit right in with the "matter of perspective" notion I posted. It does not have to be black and white. I love the idea that the supernatural evil is pulling the strings, possibly from another plane, manipulating the various forces on the material plane. How would the band of heroes feel after learning that the last 4 years of campaigning were done for the bidding of Orcus himself? His plot to wage war on everyone pitting one race against another.

I am playing Scales of War right now. Obviously, as a player I don't know where the story is going but my sense is that our group has stepped into something that is way bigger than our plucky band of heroes can handle. It makes me ponder "who is behind the scenes on this deal?" What if you also added to that doubt "are we even on the right side of the conflict?"

It seems like you are playing a deep and entertaining game. But if you can answer this, is it one that deals directly with the nature of EVIL? Are you looking at and reevaluating your thoughts on the nature of EVIL? How does the current campaign deal with what your character's goals are? From what basis would your character define EVIL?

EDIT: Part of the reason I ask is that I deal with Machiavellian BS from both my peers, vendors, and customers on a daily basis. I am trying to narrow down a working definition for EVIL in the context for this thread.

 

[Scott_Rouse]

It seems like you are playing a deep and entertaining game. But if you can answer this, is it one that deals directly with the nature of EVIL? Are you looking at and reevaluating your thoughts on the nature of EVIL? How does the current campaign deal with what your character's goals are? From what basis would your character define EVIL?

I am somewhat waxing poetic here. In reality, my game is a series of fart jokes with traditional orc slaying in between.

I guess as a player character (his name is Teemu) I have never really considered my view on evil. Teemu just kills stuff and doesn't contemplate "did I just kill someones baby?" He tried to befriend an NPC (Splug from KotS) and make him his vassal but Splug got sacrificed for Orcus .

But as a player I am starting wonder what the hell is really going on with this campaign.

 

[Jasperak]

I am somewhat waxing poetic here. In reality, my game is a series of fart jokes with traditional orc slaying in between.

I guess as a player character (his name is Teemu) I have never really considered my view on evil. Teemu just kills stuff and doesn't contemplate "did I just kill someones baby?" He tried to befriend and NPC (Splug for KotS) and make him his vassal but Splug got sacrificed for Orcus .

But as a player I am starting wonder what the hell is really going on with this campaign.

Screw arguments about editions and the nature of EVIL, sounds like you are in one hell of a game and having fun. That's the point in my book. That's why we look at evil as us v. them. We want to have fun and kill things and they want to stop us. We tell stories about who the last fight.

 

[Scott_Rouse]

Screw arguments about editions and the nature of EVIL, sounds like you are in one hell of a game and having fun. That's the point in my book. That's why we look at evil as us v. them. We want to have fun and kill things and they want to stop us. We tell stories about who the last fight.

My game is tons of fun and as player I wouldn't change it for anything. We have a great DM, he is running a good campaign, and I always leave the table wanting more.

As a DM though, I think it would be fun to create a campaign and run it as I described earlier. Create a world were good and evil aren't black and white and that the true "cosmic evil", as some one put it, is behind the scenes playing everyone for suckers. Sort of the same vibe I get watching the TV show Lost. The plot always moves forward and stuff happens but you never really know what is going on or what is coming next. It would all end with the M. Night Shyamalan ending, "you mean the guy was dead all along? Holy !"

 

[Runestar]

I guess this is why dnd has such a superficial take on evil (where evil typically just means rampaging the nearby countryside and randomly terrorizing commoners). The gist of it has mainly been to kill the baddies and take their loot. They are classified as evil so you can kick their behinds relatively guilt free, and even get a charge out of it (They are evil, so by fighting them, we are the good guys!).

 

[Jasperak]

I guess this is why dnd has such a superficial take on evil (where evil typically just means rampaging the nearby countryside and randomly terrorizing commoners). The gist of it has mainly been to kill the baddies and take their loot. They are classified as evil so you can kick their behinds relatively guilt free, and even get a charge out of it (They are evil, so by fighting them, we are the good guys!).

Morals are for church.

D&D is kill and take it's stuff.

 

[Jack7]

is kill **** and take it's stuff.

Is that our working definition of evil, or good?
I'm just trying to avoid the philosophy of becoming confused on the issue.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

But, here's the important thing: the issue of Nature vs. Nurture.

We're all familiar with the old argument "Is it okay to butcher baby orcs?" Are Orcs born evil, it being a fundamental aspect of their very being, or is it merely a cultural affect/tenant of worshipping Gruumsh?

Because apparently you can have evil humans, dwarves, and other demi-humans, but you couldn't get away with killing baby humans because "they will just grow up to be evil." You can't even get away with butchering the babies of evil humans.

But it seems to me that a lot of people assume Orcs = Cosmically evil, no question, born that way. If Orcs were in the PHB, they'd be up in arms.

I propose that it genuinely depends on the DM's campaign setting, what assumptions he hands down about various races/monsters, and how alignment behaves in his game.

Well...if you look at previous editions of the game, that some races like Orcs were "Cosmically Evil" was the default assumption.

Not to many demonstrations or waving of pitchforks and torches, as I recall.

 

[Rechan]

Yes! Supernatural evil is great and could fit right in with the "matter of perspective" notion I posted.

Aye. The existance of one does not prevent the existance of the other.

It's just like in Eberron, where people have different agendas, that alignment is really, really muddled, and half of your antagonists can be your allies and vice versa. Where you can have a campaign that feels like the Maltese Falcon.

...And then you have Overtly, Supernatural Evil forces like the Quori (LE Mind-controlling SOBs), Lords of Dust (NE Fiends) and the Daelkyr (CE Entities of madness).

 

[Rechan]

Not to many demonstrations or waving of pitchforks and torches, as I recall.

And yet earlier editions still had the "Killin' baby orcs is okay, yes or no?" argument.