The Problem of Evil [Forked From Ampersand: Wizards & Worlds]

Let's add another confusing wrinkle to the mix.

We're all about Good vs. Evil.

What about Law vs. Chaos?

Couldnt' the Orcs, rather than being just EVIL, be Chaotic? And agents of chaos, without overt evil involved?

What about something that is Lawful?

How do those impact the behavior, and the perceptions?
 

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From a more general standpoint:
Screw alignment. Orcs that want to attack my village are evil and need to be eradicated.

And if it was human bandits attacking the village would it be okay to track them back and slaughter every man woman and child in the bandit camp?
 

Let's add another confusing wrinkle to the mix.

We're all about Good vs. Evil.

What about Law vs. Chaos?

Couldnt' the Orcs, rather than being just EVIL, be Chaotic? And agents of chaos, without overt evil involved?

What about something that is Lawful?

How do those impact the behavior, and the perceptions?

I think it adds another interesting dynamic.

Is the shark lawful because it must kill to survive (law of nature drives it's biological function) or chaotic because it attacks swimmers in the shallows for a week straight and then goes back to eating fish for the rest of it's life (free will and/or chance opportunity that leads to seemingly uncharacteristic chaotic-like behavior)?

Laws, good or evil, would also be a matter of perspective. Laws by humans that say 'kill all orcs on sight" might seem good, unless you're an orc.

Chaotic behavior may only be chaotic at the level you look at it from. Up close the behavior may seem to be random and nonsensical but if you zoom out, it suddenly may have order and structure. Attacking one village is a random skirmish but zoom out and see villages across the land are being attacked on every full moon and suddenly it is an organized war.
 
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Let's add another confusing wrinkle to the mix.

We're all about Good vs. Evil.

What about Law vs. Chaos?

Couldnt' the Orcs, rather than being just EVIL, be Chaotic? And agents of chaos, without overt evil involved?

What about something that is Lawful?

How do those impact the behavior, and the perceptions?

Another thought I had.

Is a serial killer Lawful Evil or Chaotic Evil? The act is clearly evil. In one sense the act has order, following a rule but it goes against the status quot and lives outside of societies rules. Now what about a vampire hunter?
 
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And if it was human bandits attacking the village would it be okay to track them back and slaughter every man woman and child in the bandit camp?

Only if they were Inherently Evil. :p

In fact, I see PCs consistently avoid killing non-combatant humanoids. They even try to avoid wiping out the warriors, if the tribe agrees to stop attacking the humans. Of course this means more orcs/goblins/etc will grow up to attack humans in the future.
 


Another thought I had.

Is a serial killer Lawful Evil or Chaotic Evil? The act is clearly evil. In one sense the act has order, following a rule but it goes against the status quot and lives outside of societies rules. Now what about a vampire hunter?

Chaotic Evil. Even the organised serial killers.
A vampire hunter's alignment will depend on motivation; the hunter in the book I Am Legend was Neutral. Van Helsing was LG.
 

The type of game Scott suggests can be an excellent game. I like trying to understand how the game hold together, so that if you change one theme of the game, you adjust the others so that the whole thing is philosophically coherent.

Having said this, D&D seems to me to be rooted in the amorality of pulp fantasy, like Conan, where "might is right" or of the Grey Mouser where "if I am cunning enough then I deserve to win". The alignment system has NEVER made sense in this light, at least not the good-evil axis. It also doesn't make much sense when put against the game's central premise; killing monsters and taking their treasure.

Here is how I have always reconciled this, at least in some of my games, because in fact, I LOVE moral ambiguity, dilemma and choice.

Law and Chaos, Good and Evil; For any of these things to really exist, there must be choice and free will, as well as intelligence.

Just because a being is intelligent does not mean it can choose or that it is not still an animal. If a being is intelligent but so driven by its base animal nature that it can barely resist its instincts then it cannot make moral choices in the way that most of us can.

An orc in my game is not evil; it is a shark and driven by a lust for savage slaughter that it can control no more than the predator from the deep. It is dangerous, murderous and it must be destroyed or else ruin will follow, but it is not evil; just a tortured thing consumed by blood-lust. This IMHO is how Tolkien wanted us to view Orcs. They cannot be reasoned with to any great degree, because their instincts and base nature are too strong and fear will keep them away only for so long, so they must be slain.

This is why I don't like my savage humanoids to be anything other than savage, because once they are no longer base and lustful, they can choose just as we can and can no longer collectively be lumped as dangerous and slain without thought. If I want this to be the case then I design the creature specifically for morally vague games for the purposes of dilemma.

This is a matter of degree; even humans are ruled by lusts and so their choice is also not free choice, yet we can decide to change our nature because instinct is not so strong. The fact that evil is an easier choice than good is in fact what makes doing good a sign of inner power. The same is also true, to some extent, of law and chaos since thermodynamics tells us that all natural systems tend to complete disorder, so law is the harder choice.

D&D is moving in the right direction; the monsterous humanoids should be like savage animals or else we risk having to ask if they are good or evil. And once we do that, we are in a different game. It is a game I love to play, but I don't think it is the core D&D value.
 

I think it adds another interesting dynamic.

Is the shark lawful because it must kill to survive (law of nature drives it's biological function) or chaotic because it attacks swimmers in the shallows for a week straight and then goes back to eating fish for the rest of it's life (free will and/or chance opportunity that leads to seemingly uncharacteristic chaotic-like behavior)?

Laws, good or evil, would also be a matter of perspective. Laws by humans that say 'kill all orcs on sight" might seem good, unless you're an orc.
What you describe is moral relativism. There is no true right or wrong, merely perspective based on cultural definition. The same act is Good for group A, but evil for group B, because group A defines it as good and group B defines it as evil. Such as suicide; in Japanese culture, suicide is acceptable because it is seen as taking the utmost of responsibilities for your action, and absolving yourself/your family of shame. In Western culture, it is seen as shameful/sinful/selfish, etc.

This of course is ignoring the fact that in D&D, alignment is a living breathing thing that exists in the room. Both because of the existence of supernatural forces that exemplify those alignments, and because alignment (up until 4e) was a mechanic ingrained in the system. The [Evil] keyword beside the spell Animate Dead removed all subjective argument; casting the spell moves your alignment if you do it too often, period. You can't really argue perspective with the paladin when you show up on his Detect Evil.

Now, what I meant by "Chaotic" is not 'random action', but 'anti-order'. Or anti-civilization, if you will; a race of rebels without a cause. A group of raiders who burn crops and tear houses down, but do not kill anyone, who blockade roads and disrupt logging efforts would be agents of chaos. As are fae that spend their existences frollicing and cavorting around, their dancing rings drawing in the unwary, unable to escape; they are chaotic due to their hedonistic natures of 'do what feels good'; those fae have no structure to their existence. It can mean "Untamed" and "Wild", "Unreliable" and "Not one for commitment". Tarzan and the Vikings.
 
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