D&D 4E Are Long-Term Charm Effects Gone in 4E?

[WalterKovacs]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I agree that long-term charm could be unbalanced in 4E combat (although a limitation that doesn't allow you or your allies to attack the charmed creature or ask it to do anything crazy (like in 3E) might work). The sample power provided by jgsugden is pretty good, although it probably belongs as a daily in the mid- to high-heroic tier IMO.

I was more concerned about out-of-combat plot issues. In 3E, for instance, I had a plot about a vampire-wizard infiltrating the court of a duke and charming him for a couple of years with his wizard spells, and later fully possessing him with magic jar for a time. I feel like I can't do that kind of thing anymore.

I know I can always just say "well, the NPC can do that with some power or spell that he has," but I'm the sort who likes to work w/in the existing rules. I feel like my players enjoy the story more that way...

But the existing rules are such that NPCs have abilities that PCs don't have access to, and vice versa. If none of the PCs are vampires, then a vampire-wizard is going to be able to do a lot of things that PC wizards can't do. I would think being an undead wizard would give one a very long time to create new and interesting rituals.

 

[Paul Strack]

I was more concerned about out-of-combat plot issues. In 3E, for instance, I had a plot about a vampire-wizard infiltrating the court of a duke and charming him for a couple of years with his wizard spells, and later fully possessing him with magic jar for a time. I feel like I can't do that kind of thing anymore.

Magic rituals are your friend here. Simply invent a ritual with an appropriate effect and give it to your NPC. To keep it out of the hands of your PCs, either make the ritual secret or give it unpleasant ritual components. "Sure you can use the same ritual the vampire used to charm the Duke ... all you need is the fresh blood of a dozen babies."

Making the source of the effect be a ritual also explains why the NPC can't hit the PCs with it in battle.

In my games, I have a short-hand description for these NPC-only rituals as the "Ritual of Plot Advancement." To advance things on the PC side, I make heavy use of the "Skill Challenge of Plot Advancement."

 

[Falling Icicle]

Here's one way a charm ritual could work. Because it's a ritual, you can't use it in combat, and since the target has to be willing or helpless, you've effectively defeated it anyway.

Charm Person
Some people say a good friend is hard to come by. For you, a good friend is just an incantation away.
Level: 6
Category: Binding
Time: 10 minutes
Duration: 24 hours
Component Cost: 100 gp
Market Price: 300 gp
Key Skill: Arcana

You make a humanoid creature regard you as a trusted friend and ally (its attitude toward you changes to friendly) for 24 hours. This ritual doesn't allow you to control the target's actions, but it perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way. You can try to give the subject orders, but you must succeed at a Diplomacy check to convince it to do anything it wouldn't ordinarily do. An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something dangerous is worth doing. Any act by you or your allies that threatens the target breaks the effect. You must speak the target's language to communicate commands, or else be good at pantomiming.

A target of this ritual must be within 5 squares of you and must be either willing or helpless for the duration of the ritual. Your Arcana check result must beat the target's Will defense for the ritual to succeed. If you fail, you can't attempt to charm that target again for 24 hours.

 

[BobTheNob]

The whole "long term effects" is a thing of the past with 4th edition. The conventions completely changed to an entirely new paradigm. I found the hardest thing to be letting go of 3.5 and embracing the now philosophy, but I found once I embraced it I loved it!

So many of the things that plum gave me the $&*#s from 3.5 (overly long charm effects included) are non issues because the paradigm shifts eliminate these cheesy game issues. Durations are short! Yea!

With most things, naming conventions come forward (Magic missile is still there ) but implementation is entirely different.

Charm Person Wizard Attack 1

Daily * Arcane, Charm, Implement
Standard Action Range 5
Target: One Creature
Attack: Intelligence vs Will
Hit: Target may not make an attack that includes you as a target (save ends).

This is an excellent interpretation of how charm person would work in 4th edition (Didnt like the "special" section, but loved just the bit quoted...please dont flame me )

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Here's one way a charm ritual could work. Because it's a ritual, you can't use it in combat, and since the target has to be willing or helpless, you've effectively defeated it anyway.

Charm Person
Some people say a good friend is hard to come by. For you, a good friend is just an incantation away.
Level: 6
Category: Binding
Time: 10 minutes
Duration: 24 hours
Component Cost: 100 gp
Market Price: 300 gp
Key Skill: Arcana

You make a humanoid creature regard you as a trusted friend and ally (its attitude toward you changes to friendly) for 24 hours. This ritual doesn't allow you to control the target's actions, but it perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way. You can try to give the subject orders, but you must succeed at a Diplomacy check to convince it to do anything it wouldn't ordinarily do. An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something dangerous is worth doing. Any act by you or your allies that threatens the target breaks the effect. You must speak the target's language to communicate commands, or else be good at pantomiming.

A target of this ritual must be within 5 squares of you and must be either willing or helpless for the duration of the ritual. Your Arcana check result must beat the target's Will defense for the ritual to succeed. If you fail, you can't attempt to charm that target again for 24 hours.

you can drop helpless... if he is helpless, he is also asumed willing...

actually a well done ritual.

A different approach could be that you need several personal things of your target, like blood, hair etc., and maybe trick him into drinking something, during the chanting of the ritual which takes 24 hours...

(so beating someone bloody and giving him a "healing" potion will be suffiient)

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I wouldn't assume willing and unconcious are the same at all myself, lol. Really I wouldn't even set a 'willing' requirement. If an NPC is gullible enough to sit through a ritual casting then go for it. It is kind of pointless to charm a willing person anyway.

I have to agree though, long term effects were always problems in ODD. Making them rituals is reasonable compromise between story advancement and combat balance. If the DM NEEDS to have the PCs charm someone, he can hand them a scroll or teach them the ritual. And it has the added benefit of providing a bit of justification for an NPC being able to do it.

 

[FireLance]

Actually, I like both the daily power and the ritual and I think it would be possible to combine the two: you first have to use the daily power on the target and if it is still charmed at the end of the combat, you can use the ritual to extend the charm effect for a day.

I'd throw in an additional clause that you can only have one creature subject to the ritual at a time.

 

[Wormwood]

. . .

 

[Stalker0]

Using a ritual to create long term charm is a better idea imo. The power above is not balanced, even by a long shot.

My thoughts exactly, same for dominate.

Dominate person could be a broken spell in 3.5, but I do think that if I take a guy, strap him to a chair for 8 hours while I perform a powerful ritual, I should be able to control his mind for a while.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

My thoughts exactly, same for dominate.

Dominate person could be a broken spell in 3.5, but I do think that if I take a guy, strap him to a chair for 8 hours while I perform a powerful ritual, I should be able to control his mind for a while.

Is there a Forget Ritual ? Otherwise using a Charm Ritual in this way could have dire consequences for the charmer or the charmee...