Does 4e limit the scope of campaigns?

[Imaro]

The table is headed "Locks", not "Player Level". Heroic tier locks have an Open DC of 20, Paragon tier locks have an Open DC of 30, etc.

So it doesn't mention lock quality at all in the table or descriptive text...right? Again if I walk up to someone on the street and state I have a "paragon" quality lock that means... what exactly? Why not just state it as a mediocre, average and superb "quality" lock? In other words why use heroic, paragon and epic? How are using these descriptors in any way intuitive if it has nothing to do with using the number based on the actual tier a player's character is at?

 

[Mallus]

This is not just a place for gaming - it is a setting in which gaming happens to take place.

Why did you create it then?

That... strikes me as a completely alien approach to world design, actually.

It's just form following function. Wait, make that 'form acknowledging function'.

 

[keterys]

I design the world in such a way that it includes elements that interest me and that make sense. Nothing is put there specifically for PCs.

Fwiw, I consider this one of the most common and ultimately damaging mistakes of world design that DMs make.

From start to finish, I want the game to be about everyone having fun - which means that as a DM I have to determine what will be fun for the players and produce that.

For some players, that might mean a very simulationist realistic world, where they tailor their characters to the campaign world that is exceptionally detailed and available. For other players it means that it's far more important to put in certain NPCs to interact specifically off their own playing styles and quirks, challenges to fit them, even running gags.

If I'm running for multiple groups and they want different things, then I should probably run different styles of campaign for them - or find a different group.

 

[Halivar]

No. My game I want everything good, like the GURPS game or the old editions. Why fun to do one thing? This is not fun.

I'm boggling at the bolded part.

D&D is not, never was, and never will be a general-purpose roleplaying game. If it were, it wouldn't be D&D anymore.

In all honesty, not to be snarky at all, I seriously think that Murad and GW have picked the wrong ruleset. In GW's case, I don't even see how 3.5 could be satisfying, given that it's closer to 4E than to any universal system like GURPS. The game system to use is something less gamey hack-n-slash (which D&D, from its very inception, is), and more focused on internal consistency.

Unfortunately, D&D can't be all things to all people. If it became your dream game, it would be unplayable to me. So it continues as it does, doing its one thing really well, hacking the bad guys, taking their loot, gaining the next level, and telling stories along the way.

 

[Burrito Al Pastor]

From start to finish, I want the game to be about everyone having fun

But weren't you paying attention? Gaming isn't about having fun. It doesn't matter if you're having fun.

 

[Burrito Al Pastor]

Why are all the threats in the city of brass epic - why are all the inhabitants epic?

The City of Brass and its inhabitants are epic because there needs to be a level-appropriate city for epic heroes to go to.

Stop thinking about it, you'll only hurt yourself. You parted ways with the 4e design philosophy when you said gaming doesn't need to be fun.

 

[Spatula]

So it doesn't mention lock quality at all in the table or descriptive text...right? Again if I walk up to someone on the street and state I have a "paragon" quality lock that means... what exactly?

Be sure to ask them what they think of vancian magic systems, while you're at it. Or throw other random game terms at them and watch their confusion.

If you're unfamiliar with 4e's tiers, they're discussed in the PHB, the DMG, can be easily inferred from perusing the MM, and have been talked about quite a bit by the WotC designers. A paragon-tier lock is something you would find in paragon-tier adventure locales, along with paragon-tier monsters, paragon-tier traps, and paragon-tier loot.

 

[Burrito Al Pastor]

To be more specific, the Paragon tier is levels 11-20, so a paragon lock is the sort of lock a person buys if their power and wealth is that of a character of level 11-20, broadly speaking.

 

[Imaro]

Be sure to ask them what they think of vancian magic systems, while you're at it. Or throw other random game terms at them and watch their confusion.

If you're unfamiliar with 4e's tiers, they're discussed in the PHB, the DMG, can be easily inferred from perusing the MM, and have been talked about quite a bit by the WotC designers. A paragon-tier lock is something you would find in paragon-tier adventure locales, along with paragon-tier monsters, paragon-tier traps, and paragon-tier loot.

Now for the prize, tell me... what type of ledge, to balance on, do you put in a paragon tier locale? Because it's DC isn't connected in any way to tiers... this is where I find the problem with the clarity of skills in 4e.

Edit: Or what type of walls are found to climb in Paragon-tier or Epic-tier locations...here, I'll even help...

Climb DC's...
Surface

Ladder 0
Rope 10
Uneven Surface (Cave Wall) 15
Rough Surface (Brick Wall) 20
Slippery Surface +5
Unusually Smooth Surface +5

It's a consistency issue that could have easily been resolved if the designers had decided on one way to represent DC's for in-game challenges...either through objective description or tier based assignment... but why both?

 

[Halivar]

Now for the prize, tell me... what type of ledge, to balance on, do you put in a paragon tier locale? Because it's DC isn't connected in any way to tiers..

Well, none of the other environment tables than page 42 have anything to do with level, either. Doors, for instance, have fixed break DC's.

The sidebar on page 65 has the best explanation I can think of:

The D&D game would become a bloated mess if we tried to cover every possible obstacle or terrain. If you want to use something not covered in this chapter, refer to the examples here as a guideline. Don't be afraid to make something up based on a logical interpretation of what you think should happen.

Emphasis mine. Page 42 is supposed to be a facilitator of off-the-cuff play, not a strait-jacket telling you that the same ledge gets harder just because you went up a level.

EDIT: Me? I'd say "just a ledge" is always DC 10. In order to justify a paragon-level DC, it must be more than a ledge. Lava and cattle-prod's could help.