The Impasse

[Shazman]

As soon as you announce a new product in an existing line, you are effectively competing with yourself. If, tomorrow, Apple announced there'd be a new iPod in July, many consumers would either (1) bargain-hunt, or (2) wait for the new shiny.

Now, I know I stopped buying 3e books after the announcement. I know at least some others did, too - and I'm tempted to say "many". I also remember some post-Gen-Con wrap-up threads from 3pps which said, more or less, the 4e announcement cut their sales. It's safe to say that 3e was losing more customers than it was gaining.

Now, of course the market didn't completely dry up. I never said it did. It simply shrank - which I think you acknowledge by saying 3e products sold "fairly well". If your profit margin is small to begin with, like everyone in the RPG industry, you simply can't continue to have the same expenses while making less product.

That spells ruin. If your profits shrink appreciably, you can't spend as much on research & development. If you don't spend money on R&D, the final product is likely to be of lower quality.

That's what all of these doomsday scenarios amount to - a simple shrinking of profits, perhaps as "slight" as 10%-20%, can affect you for years to come.

And I get "Maybe" from your post because, if you go from saying "No" to saying something else, anything else you say is basically a Maybe and, in all likelihood a Yes. This includes "No comment."

-O

Let's get some prespective here. As I already pointed out, the statement was not made three years in advance but approximately 6 months prior to the official anouncement of 4E. Also, they continued to produce and sell 3.5 products for many months after the announcement of 4E. In fact,t he last I heard, 3.5 PHB's are still selling well, and Paizo's 3.5 sales really took off after the announcement of 4E. According to you, they should have never released any 3.5 products after the announcement of 4E, but they did and it seemed to work out well for them and 3rd party publishers.

 

[Sammael]

Also, they continued to produce and sell 3.5 products for many months after the announcement of 4E.

With the false pretext that those products would be updated to 4E upon the new system's release. I'm honestly surprised that more people aren't bitching about this, but perhaps the sales performance of those products was so minor that they decided updating them would cost more than it would be worth.

Still, it's what is technically called "false advertising" and is punishable by law in many countries.

 

[xechnao]

Maybe it should be changed to D.P.R. - damage per round?

And to be fair, the dreaded character optimization boards were full of people focused on optimizing the D.P.R. output in the height of 3.x, so that's not a 4E construct at all.

Yes, this might be the reason that Wotc made 4e the way it is. It catered to balance out the optimization efforts of 3.x. I would like to see next edition to take a totally different design direction than try to just ease the "pain" that the tendencies of the focus of the previous ruleset can cause.
The problem is that this "pain" is what the hardcore gamers end to be about and I doubt we will ever see such a daring move by Wotc.

 

[Fenes]

Yes, this might be the reason that Wotc made 4e the way it is. It catered to balance out the optimization efforts of 3.x. I would like to see next edition to take a totally different design direction than try to cure the "pain" that the tendencies of the focus of the previous ruleset can cause.
The problem is that this "pain" is what the hardcore gamers end to be about and I doubt we will ever see such a daring move by Wotc.

Which brings up another pet peeve of mine: That MMOGs by and large cater to hardcore grinders, not to roleplayers. There hasn't been any support for roleplaying (other than some token "RP server" tag) in most of the big MMOGs.

 

[xechnao]

Which brings up another pet peeve of mine: That MMOGs by and large cater to hardcore grinders, not to roleplayers. There hasn't been any support for roleplaying (other than some token "RP server" tag) in most of the big MMOGs.

If you think about the fan resistance to change in the new edition of Starcraft the challenge of the hardcore exploitation of the original ...yep, Blizzard has some problems there to face.
But I never really understood this hardcore gaming -I do play classic games like chess and I would be pissed if one day they decided to change the rules of chess but I cant but scratch my head when I see this happening to fans of video games or what have you. So I see it is my fault here. OTOH video games and modern mini and card games are so complicated and build with a consumerism mind set that I feel it is very hard to feel about them like one could feel about a classic and less "materialistic" game like chess.

 

[Fenes]

If you think about the fan resistance to change in the new edition of Starcraft the challenge of the hardcore exploitation of the original ...yep, Blizzard has some problems there to face.
But I never really understood this hardcore gaming -I do play classic games like chess and I would be pissed if one day they decided to change the rules of chess but I cant but scratch my head when I see this happening to fans of video games or what have you. So I see it is my fault here. OTOH video games and modern mini games are so complicated and build with a consumerism mind set that I feel it is very hard to feel about them like one could feel about a classic and less "materialistic" game like chess.

I wasn't talking about resistance to changes but about the completely lack of anything that would support roleplaying in the majority of the games.

 

[Shazman]

With the false pretext that those products would be updated to 4E upon the new system's release. I'm honestly surprised that more people aren't bitching about this, but perhaps the sales performance of those products was so minor that they decided updating them would cost more than it would be worth.

Still, it's what is technically called "false advertising" and is punishable by law in many countries.

I had forgotten about that particular lie. Considering their inability to deliver on most of their promises concerning 4e, it would be more surprising if they actualy did something they promised.

 

[xechnao]

I wasn't talking about resistance to changes but about the completely lack of anything that would support roleplaying in the majority of the games.

You are right, I got carried away. But I could see a common point here. Roleplaying is about change: it is about the individual input one brings to the table and each this happens it brings something new -it innovates the situation.
So I guess it is even harder to have a hardcore mind set and be a roleplayer

 

[DandD]

It's always funny to read how 4th edition is accused of the very same thing in 3rd edition.
Although, isn't 3rd edition the MMORPG-like system, and 4th edition the Console-RPG-emulating thingie? How comes people suddenly give 4th edition all the bad reputation-stuff that belongs to 3rd edition?
In 3rd edition, you have professions to mine, gather herbs, fish and craft leathery, jewels, brew potions, and other non-important stuff. That can appearently be a good thing, as some people seemingly like this stuff. Also, clerics are absolutely needed to survive a battle.
In 4th edition, you don't. You only have what is necessary, like fight, special ability, item and run, like in all Final Fantasy titles (barring XI, the MMO-version). That surely is a good thing, as the stuff above never ever found its way in like 99.99999.... percent of all games anyway. Clerics and other healer-classes are really nice, but a tad less important than prior edition (still nice if you have a dedicated healer).

5th edition is surely going to be accused of being too handheldy, hehe...

 

[xechnao]

It's always funny to read how 4th edition is accused of the very same thing in 3rd edition.
Although, isn't 3rd edition the MMORPG-like system, and 4th edition the Console-RPG-emulating thingie? How comes people suddenly give 4th edition all the bad reputation-stuff that belongs to 3rd edition?
In 3rd edition, you have professions to mine, gather herbs, fish and craft leathery, jewels, brew potions, and other non-important stuff. That can appearently be a good thing, as some people seemingly like this stuff. Also, clerics are absolutely needed to survive a battle.
In 4th edition, you don't. You only have what is necessary, like fight, special ability, item and run, like in all Final Fantasy titles (barring XI, the MMO-version). That surely is a good thing, as the stuff above never ever found its way in like 99.99999.... percent of all games anyway. Clerics and other healer-classes are really nice, but a tad less important than prior edition (still nice if you have a dedicated healer).

5th edition is surely going to be accused of being too handheldy, hehe...

You are mixing two different things. The combat and non combat. IMO there should be a connection among the two but neither MMOs nor 4e (which focuses solely on combat) neither 3e which has non combat elements has managed to achieve this. But in 3e the Dungeon Master has a mechanical basis to try to achieve this. Of course it is very difficult to cater for this in published adventures since they must take under consideration to be compatible with most adventuring party builds possible.

The accusation for 4e (from a 3e POV) is that while its combat is a better copy of the combat that happens in MMO it leaves out the non combat elements and there is no mechanical base to build on the possibilities I was talking about above by the Dungeon Master (at least in theory that is). Also MMOs do not have dungeon masters (the way tabletops have) and there is no such possibility in them at all, at least from what I know.

My personal problem is one not explained here but I would say that both 3e and 4e have their merits -I believe that how they stand out, unless 3e manages to add some kind of meta-system to help the DM achieve on (and with the logistics of 3.x to succeed in this without alienating the logistics it seems impossible) what I was talking about, in practice 4e is a better game because it achieves better its own purpose -it can exploit its strengths because it focuses them at one point (and this is easier to do with the D20 system). Of course many people do not want to be limited in these strengths and 3e is seems a better fit for this -albeit with the need of fixing it.