DM'ing is a skill, not an art.

[S'mon]

My question to you is, do I award xp to these three only, or do I count the other two, who are two hours away in a pipe?

By default, orc fighters get orc XP, pipe climbers get any climbing XP.

If the pipe climbers had earlier contributed to the orc fighters' ability to get into a position to kill orcs, they may merit a share of the orc XP.

But absent PCs should not be taking XP away from present PCs. Why should my PC, who nearly died fighting those orcs while you were climbing a pipe I told you not to, have his XP reward reduced to benefit the absentees?

 

[Varis]

Then the drama comes as the PCs try to escape the pipe before the release of water kills them all.

Heh, that certainly would of been the case if they tried breaking the stone. With the first crack, water would jet out in a fine mist, ..quickly followed by a multitude of cracks spidering around the initial impact.
At this point in time, I would get to see which players are actually smart, and which players 'prode the rock a little more forcefully'.

 

[S'mon]

Had they succeeded (with magic for example) in fracturing the rock, they would of had torrents of water crashing down on them, sweeping them down the pipe, and affording them (assuming they passed enough endurance checks to hold their breath all that time), a magnificent birds eye view of the green, firtile valley below, as they launched out the side of the mountain and fell to their deaths.

Yeah, that would have been cool. Especially for the PCs who weren't dumb enough to go up that pipe.

BTW, did you roll randomly to see whether the pipe opened? Did you time it? Or did you mollycoddle the players? It seems to me that the inherent drama of the situation kicks in once the PCs realise they've screwed up horribly and can die at any minute.

 

[Varis]

By default, orc fighters get orc XP, pipe climbers get any climbing XP.

But absent PCs should not be taking XP away from present PCs. Why should my PC, who nearly died fighting those orcs while you were climbing a pipe I told you not to, have his XP reward reduced to benefit the absentees?

Your reasoning agrees with my current thinking.
The pipe climbers had nothing to do with the orc combat.

However, they (the pipe climbers) are arguing for a share of the orc xp (to keep things fair and xp in line with everyone else).

As much as I might like to, I'm having a hard time determining any xp for climbing up the pipe. They took 10 on what was going to be a skill challenge. There was no real risk. I can give some from a role playing perspective, but that's about it.

Would you agree with this evaluation?

 

[S'mon]

As much as I might like to, I'm having a hard time determining any xp for climbing up the pipe. They took 10 on what was going to be a skill challenge. There was no real risk. I can give some from a role playing perspective, but that's about it.

Would you agree with this evaluation?

It seems like a fine judgement call. Going by 3e, if the pipe would have challenged most people, but their great skills let them succeed by taking 10, then I think that it would merit some XP as a Challenge, albeit a low CR one.

If they had then had to flee at great speed before the valve opened and the water swept them away, then that would have merited more XP if they survived.

In any case, I would reject the "You must give us XP to keep it fair" argument. By that reasoning, the PCs could have stayed home and they'd still be getting XP for the orcs their comrades killed.

A Gygaxian GM would have killed off the pipe climbers. I think they got off lightly.

 

[Kzach]

Would you agree with this evaluation?

I disagree with everything you say. You should know this by now

 

[Belisarius]

From the other side of the screen

I'm one of the players in Varis' game. Varis is a great DM, he's not afraid to improve parts of the module, and he's made some truly memorable scenes by in weaving bits of the character's backstory into the plot.

The characters were walking up a mountain road; in a howling windstorm. Two investigated the pipes, and on a sucessful Insight check the DM told them the pipes were going to the vicinity of the keep and were a shorter route and more direct. The DM also told them the pipes were also smelly, slimy and dark, but hey, a Drow and a Half-Orc, what do we care? It was more interesting than the road.

We took 10 on the Skill Challenge, but the DM was grinning like a cat stalking at a canary, the way he does when I'm rolling a Death Save with two saves crossed off.

Was that a matter of DMing art vs skill, or narrative vs sandbox?

 

[Shadeydm]

Skill, art, the meaning of (DMing) life,...all these considerations laid bare just because of a drainage pipe.

Hello, I am the DM who's woefull skills have been put under the spotlight.

I am happy to explain the issue and situation in context (as I see it), however, my feeling here is that this is an issue of 'what I could of done v's what the reality was'.

The real question is 'Should a DM change the reality to make things fun for it's own sake?'

My answer to this is,...ask an orc! The world is set. Actions have consequences which players can influence. Looking for an alternate way in is a great idea, which in this case didn't work.

The Situatation

The pipe lead to a dead end, because it was 'closed' with a heavy stone locking mechanism diverting the water flow elsewhere.

The reasons why the dwarves don't trap the pipe is because:

a. When in use, high pressure water flows through the pipe and outflows over the side of a mountain. These pipes (or more accurately, carved out tunnels in the mountain side) have been smoothed by the intense water pressures/flows over the eons. A slimey substance clings to the sides of the pipes (the result of the muck in the water composition, which is constantly being flushed and replaced with new muck/slime). To traverse the pipes successfully, you have to brace yourself against the sides and move at half speed. In addition, rope and pinions are required when the pipe starts going verticle.

b. When not in use, the source of the pipes is sealed with a heavy stone cap that can be opened from within via a mechanism of counterweights being engaged. Anyone powerfull enough to actually break through this cap, would instantly be overcome by the torrent of water (think of a dam releasing water), sliding them right through the pipe system and over the side of the mountain. Anyone secured to the pipe first, would drown. If they can breath in water, they would be pinned down by the water pressure until the cap was replaced. Moving/resiting the water pressure is an auto fail due to the players strength being insufficient.

c. Because of it's use, no creatures have made the pipes home, as they would ineviatably be flushed away.

Two players decided to explore the pipes. I decided to make this a skill challenge and thus reward them for at least trying (with xp), however, they decided to 'take 10' on all skill checks and take their time, use a climbing kit (pinions & rope), effectively making making the encounter an auto success. So no xp, but no risk of certain death.

They were told it would take anywhere from 3-5 hours to get to where they believed was the original source of the pipe.
Two players decided to go ahead over the disagreement of another three party members. The other three were not going to hang around idly, so they continued onwards. I should note that at the end of the game I was encouraged to not 'split the party', as if that had somehow been my intention?

I can see (at least) half of you pulling out your hair saying 'You've missed the point!".
It wasn't fun. Why didn't you do something about it?

Did I want them to go up the pipe? No.
Did I want them to split the party? No.
Did I want them not have fun? No.

Did the players actions result in these three things occurring? Yes.

If DMing is art, I provide the canvass, and the players are the artists. They provide the direction and I provide feedback on the results.

If DMing is a skill, then I use that skill to navigate the players through the adventure and work off their feedback to maximise their enjoyment.

If it's a bit of both, then DM and players feed off one another to maximise thier enjoyment.

What is this the right approach? I'll let you decide.

So, if the question is, 'should I change things if they see another drainage pipe in the future?'

The answer is, 'no, after all,...its just a drainage pipe'.

Thanks for posting, its always nice to see both sides of the story. FWIW I am behind you 100% on this one sometimes a drain pipe is just a drain pipe.

 

[Varis]

BTW, did you roll randomly to see whether the pipe opened? Did you time it? Or did you mollycoddle the players? It seems to me that the inherent drama of the situation kicks in once the PCs realise they've screwed up horribly and can die at any minute.

*Possible Seige at Bordrin's watch spoilers*
DO NOT READ IF YOU ARE PLAYING THIS AT THE MOMENT (Belisarius that includes you)

Good questions.

No, I didn't have to roll randomly to see whether the pipe opened. The pipe is used at 12 midnight every day, to wash away the wastes of the citadel.

From a role playing point of view, the pipe does serve a practicle function. There is only one road that winds up to the citadel (not including any underground tunnel systems). If an attacking force were to attempt to come up that road, the dwarves open the pipe. It's waters rush down and over a good 30 feet of this narrow road (which has no side barrier to prevent someone from being swept down). The force is easily enough to knock a man off the mountain. Whilst they dwarves know that a determined foe will eventually find a way around, the water will either slow them down, thin out their numbers, or stop a less capable force all together. In addition to this, there is a walled city in the valley, which would send their troop should they see the water flowing at an unusual time of day.

I have not mollycoddled the players.

The orcs have found out about this defensive feature and some ancient (and forgotten) access tunnels below. They have used these tunnels and caught most of the dwarves by suprise. All the dwarves, bar one, are dead. The approach of the three PC's was spotted. The presence of the Orcs has not been discovered by the people in the valley below.

Fearing they 'have' somehow been discovered, the orcs turn on the the water pipe, to prevent what they expect to be, a 'main force' of soldiers from retaking the citadel. The orcs don't want to fight this main force because the tunnel they used to get into the citadel has been caved in by the dwarves, effectively cutting off the orcs from any other further reinforcements.

Fortunately (for them) the two PC's who had been exploring the pipe were are an hours walk up the mountain when the other three PC's were first spotted. Had the timing been a little different, I would of had pleasure of discovering whether a drow and a half orc can fly.

 

[jbear]

Tricky. I can see both sides of the story. I really value gametime too as it's a titanic struggle to coordinate gamenights with all my players (myself included) sometimes. I can understand the disappointment of not having done anything cool.

I can also see the DM's stance that the drainpipe wasn't a weak point that the players were able to sneak in through when conceived.

What would I have done? Not sure. Having the benefit of hindsight and the differing opinions/experiences, I think I would have not made it a challenge at all (as there could be no successful outcome for the adventurers) and moved thoses 5 hours of wasted time along very swiftly or even let the PC's know that very early on they realise its going to be 5 hours of tiring climing spent fruitlessly.

Then give the others a chance to prepare/do something til the climbers get back with the bad news. 2 minutes of game time later everyone is back together and putting their heads together for a new course of action.

Having thrown in an ooze against 2 PC's in tricky conditions to fight in might be fun for those 2 players (or not, if they die) but its tough on the other 3 that have to sit around twiddling thumbs because they decided (correctly in this case) that the pipe was a dead end.

Hand waving what you know about the pipe to lead to something interesting and fun might be cool (if you can think of something and pull it off) if everyone went into the pipe. I'm not against that kind of DMing at all. But when a party splits its a bit of a no win situation as far as keeping everybody happy and involved in the game is concerned.

Some situations are easier like exploring a city, social encounters and everyone taking 'short turns' to describe what they do etc to get information more quickly. It seems a bit different if what you propose is an improvised side-trek adventure for two.

Again, I think it was a tricky situation for a DM to handle. If it's a dead end then fine. Best option for me, get the party back on track or at least together asap.