Trolls!

[CapnZapp]

I have two related questions to ask you about Trolls (the smelly humanoid monster sort, not the internet sort): How do you handle them? How are they balanced?

I hope I'm not ruining things for anyone by not placing within spoilers that trolls can't be killed except by fire and acid.

Now, it seems an encounter with a troll (or five) becomes vastly different if the players have some access to either fire or acid or if they don't. Let's call a PC that has a fire sword or an at-will acid spell "capable", and a PC with only hard cold steel or lightning bolts "incapable".

Are trolls underpowered against capable adventurers? Or are they overpowered against incapable adventurers?

And how do you handle the fact that most players are likely aware of the vulnerabilities of Trolls well in advance of their characters making any Troll Lore skill checks?

For instance, it would be cool if a party of adventurers start the King of the Trollhaunt module with no access to fire or acid and only through experience fighting the Trolls find out what helps against them, and keeps them dead once defeated. However, I strongly suspect my players would all go into town purchasing some +1 Fire swords as back-up weapons at the very least. I really have a hard time seeing the signature ability of the Troll ever coming into effect against players with experience from earlier D&D editions.

What do you feel about a monster whose signature abilities are likely to never come into effect? Doesn't this effectively make the monster a few levels lower?

I should probably add that I'm not really interested in "cheating" solutions where I change the trolls into being vulnerable to some other damage types instead of fire/acid.

What about making only attacks that make both fire and acid damage work against trolls? This would have a real chance of surprising the players, while still keeping reasonably close to the "established rules" of D&D Trolls...

 

[hong]

We've had much fun killing the trolls in P1, if that's what you're talking about. I don't think they need changing at all.

 

[CapnZapp]

We've had much fun killing the trolls in P1, if that's what you're talking about. I don't think they need changing at all.

Thank you for your opinion, but can I ask you one thing: are you aware you did not address any of the concerns I voiced in my original post?

 

[hong]

Your original post boils down to: "here are some reasons why I think trolls should be changed; do you agree?" My post boils down to: "no".

 

[Plane Sailing]

I agree that a monster having a special ability which will always be overcome would make it a non-ability.

Looking at PHB1 classes, is it only the wizard which might have a fire or acid at-will (scorching burst)? Possibly infernal warlock as well? I've not got a book handy to check.

Have post-PHB1 classes got additional at-wills in there which are fire or acid? That might contribute towards increased difficulty.

If +1 flaming weapons are too easily available, then naturally that would be a problem as well.

Although you rule it out in your original question, I think that having trolls whose regeneration is stopped by other damage types (e.g. psychic might be interesting, along with either force or lightning) would actually be a rather neat way of giving trolls the 'Arrrgghhh!' factor which they had back when people first encountered them in whatever edition they first played D&D.

If there are a group of trolls, it would really reward those parties who focus fire, and really penalise those who don't (since you've not just got to overcome its hp, you also have to overcome its rate of regeneration too, and it regenerates even when you miss).

Cheers

 

[ricardo440]

My group has just fought a load of trolls. Using various ones form the compendium. They were level 8 then 9 by the end.

They had some encounter powers that produced fire, but other than that it was normal damage all the way. They were fine. They just had to be sensible that when a troll went down one of them would have to use their fire power (or acid breath) on it.

Later they bought some alchemists fire and acid. So once a troll was down someone just used thei next standard action to kill it.

 

[Nebulous]

Are trolls underpowered against capable adventurers? Or are they overpowered against incapable adventurers?

What do you feel about a monster whose signature abilities are likely to never come into effect? Doesn't this effectively make the monster a few levels lower?

What about making only attacks that make both fire and acid damage work against trolls? This would have a real chance of surprising the players, while still keeping reasonably close to the "established rules" of D&D Trolls...

Hey Zapp, i've not run trolls yet in 4e, but have had the EXACT same concerns as you. It seems like their regeneration will be nerfed every round by a party with any reliable fire magic, like a wizard's scorching burst or a Druid's Fire Seed. Even when they pop back up, they're not that tough. So, while my concerns are not validated, they are still there.

If i were to add some houserules, i might say you need to inflict X amount of damage to stop the regeneration the next round. I might also say when a troll pops back up, it's fighting mad and might get a bonus to hit or damage.

Or, as i read somewhere, you can throw a troll against a party with a Ring of Fire Resistance and really scare the poop out of them, but i'd reserve that for special occasional, not just every Joe Bob troll on the street

 

[OchreJelly]

This may seem obvious but what about the old standby of using torches or burning oil? The DM can use the damage-by-level guidelines to establish damage from a torch swing.

Also, if your group is following the standard wealth guidelines it shouldn't be hard to pick up a +1 or even a +2 flaming weapon. Not everyone will need one, but if your group is expecting a lot of troll fights it's probably worth it. Most trolls are brutes so their defenses will be low enough that a +1 won't be too bad.

Lastly...

Spoiler

I suspect much of this has to do with the trollhaunt module. If you want to throw your players a bone, drop a rumor that the black dragon has an acidic weapon that would greatly aid them.

 

[Hellzon]

Looking at PHB1 classes, is it only the wizard which might have a fire or acid at-will (scorching burst)? Possibly infernal warlock as well? I've not got a book handy to check.

Have post-PHB1 classes got additional at-wills in there which are fire or acid? That might contribute towards increased difficulty.

From the DDI compendium, searching for "fire OR acid" and filtering for at-wills:

Flame Seed (Druid, fire)
Acid Orb (Sorcerer, acid)
Burning Spray (Sorcerer, fire)
Greenflame Blade (Swordmage, fire)
Hellish Rebuke (Warlock, fire)
Scorching Burst (Wizard, fire)

 

[Pale Jackal]

I like the suggestion that trolls be vulnerable to some random type of damage. Maybe there's a reason they're vulnerable to psychic damage, and this could be true throughout your campaign, or maybe it's true for a single batch of trolls. Maybe trolls are elementally aligned and are harmed by the opposite element, or maybe they were designed by illithids, and that explains their psychic vulnerability. Also, you could always just re-skin the trolls.