Trolls!

[CapnZapp]

In short, if one of my players ever tried to use an at-will fire to cancel out regen without getting word from me that it was okay for his character to do so, it would be stopped immediately.

players who've played a lot of D&D know what trolls are. ... True, you can require the characters to make checks before they can act on this knowledge, but that's not fun. It's not fun for players to ... purposely not use the ability they would have used because their character doesn't have the player's knowledge.

I agree with UG - asking the party to not use player knowledge is awkward if that gets them killed, and forcing them outright is not fun. Then it seems to be a better solution to change the damage types around.

The reason I came to think about Trolls was the P1 module. While generally a useful tool in the DM arsenal, reskinning doesn't really work when the entire module is built on the assumption the Trolls are... Trolls.

I still can't say anyone have really brought up the crux of the issue:
1) even if the players don't know about Trolls, it's just a DC 15 Lore check away (which is trivial at early Paragon levels)
2) wielding fire is trivial too at that level. Even if somehow you can't afford the 1000 gp for a Flaming weapon, there's Alchemist's Fire or even mundane torches to be used. Acid attacks (that isn't encounter or daily powers) is comparatively much more difficult to get hold of. (There isn't any acid weapon enhancements like Flaming in the PHB, and there's no commonplace acid attack like wielding a torch either)


Still, neither the MM nor P1 seems to be written with adventurers automatically wielding acid/fire in mind. As I understand it, trolls would flee when faced with acid/fire attacks? That simply isn't practical, especially in a module like P1.

There's something here I can't fully wrap my mind around...

 

[Wrathamon]

what surprised me about P1 was that no where in the adventure do the designer/developers talk about Troll Healing and the balance issue if the party does/doesnt have fire/acid easily available.

I think the designers thought the group would have limited access to it early on because

Spoiler

they give you an acidic weapon as potential treasure

but the group would try to stock up later on. Which is why later on the adventure

Spoiler

trolls become rarer in the encounters

My group had only an encounter and a daily (a wizard's power that he didnt have ready the 1st encounter) when they first started and the trolls were very tough, to the point where some encounters turned into grinds. One fight, I had to adlib that they had torches to use "torch" damage so they could survive the very first encounter.

Halfway through the warren they retrained and had at wills that dealt fire...

trolls were no problem anymore and actually became a bit boring for them to fight

The best fights were when they had limited fire powers... they would use strategy and timing to take out the trolls. These encounters they had the most fun.

so no fire/acid = too hard or too long
at will fire/acid = little challenge

I dont think they are broke, they work fine for most groups, but the balance factor on what level they are appropriate swings greatly depending on the parties access to at will fire/acid.

I think in the future, I may give them a power that only works when their regeneration doesnt work... Risk/Reward. Use fire/acid on them to stop the Troll Healing, but now risk taking more damage from flaming limbs or oozing acidic troll flesh or something.

 

[frankthedm]

So I typically re-skin trolls as something else- a two-headed alligator who keeps getting back up when it's down, for example.

Hmm... that reminds me of this fig...

This seller is ok IF you are combining shipping on large orders...
eBay item 330260905546

 

[Jhaelen]

My post boils down to "do you think trolls are over- or underpowered?" and "do you feel it is a problem players will automatically wield fire or acid against trolls?".

Assuming you answer no to both these questions, would you care to expand on why?

Obviously, I'm not hong. But since hong managed to get you to describe the essence of your questions (which his posts tend to do):

- Trolls are fine as is. EVERY party will have fire or acid available to deal with them.
- It's not a problem that players know this.

Counter question: Do you feel it's a problem that all undead are easily recognizable and will have some kind of vulnerability to radiant damage?

 

[Kinneus]

This is how I would use trolls:
1) If the party does have access to fire/acid, I'd use them as regular mooks.

2) If the party doesn't have access to fire/acid, I'd use them as part of a tactical challenge. Imagine a fight where the only way to stop the enemy for good would be to knock them into a pit full of ochre jellies... while making sure you don't fall in yourself. Sounds exciting to me.

I one thing I would definitely not do is pit them against a fire/acid poor party without giving them the tools they need via the terrain or special resources. That just seems like a recipe for grind and frustration.

 

[DracoSuave]

If you're worried about the trolls (at paragon), then I don't know what to tell you about the many types of undead (at heroic) that require radiant damage and do the exact same thing.... and are insubstantial.

It's not as scary as you think, and I wouldn't sweat it.

Your players, of course, -will- panic.

But the thing to remember is that regeneration doesn't work if the monster is below 0 hps. Party just has to coordinate fire. If they fail to do that tho, they will die.

 

[Victim]

If you're worried about the trolls (at paragon), then I don't know what to tell you about the many types of undead (at heroic) that require radiant damage and do the exact same thing.... and are insubstantial.

It's not as scary as you think, and I wouldn't sweat it.

Your players, of course, -will- panic.

But the thing to remember is that regeneration doesn't work if the monster is below 0 hps. Party just has to coordinate fire. If they fail to do that tho, they will die.

But trolls do effectively regen while KO, since they can pop back up if not killed with fire/acid.

 

[DracoSuave]

Good point, I missed that.

There's something to be said for making a 'run-away' encounter just before level, so that someone retrains into a fire/acid at-will to fight the monsters they know they'll be up against for a while.

Depends on the party makeup. If that fails, provide fire.

 

[CapnZapp]

- Trolls are fine as is. EVERY party will have fire or acid available to deal with them.
- It's not a problem that players know this.

So you don't feel it's a waste of space having MM detail a number of abilities that never come into play? And you don't feel it's a problem Trolls are described as fleeing flame/acid-wielding opponents while the module clearly expects them to stand and fight?

Or rather, we already know your answer. But neither you nor hong have expanded on why..?

 

[CapnZapp]

what surprised me about P1 was that no where in the adventure do the designer/developers talk about Troll Healing and the balance issue if the party does/doesnt have fire/acid easily available.

Yeah, that sort of thing.