What can you tell me about Tiamat? Bring your imagination!

[doctorhook]

What can you tell me about Tiamat? I play 4E, and I'm reasonably familiar with her most current incarnation; however, I'd like to know more about how she was presented in the past, and how I can include that in her "modern" existence. I particular, I'm interested in her influence, her servants, and her lair.

Here's a summary of what I know/have heard:

• She's a deity of Greed and Evil Dragons;
• She doesn't play nicely with Bahamut;
• She was once Lord (Lady?) of the First, in the Nine Hells;
• She currently lives in the astral dominion Tytherion, the Endless Night, which she shares with Zehir;
• Her lair is deep underground, in a fiery cavern, and near a location known as, "The Maggot Pit";
• She's usually accompanied by an Ancient Dragon consort of each of Red, Blue, Green, Black, and White Dragons;
• Creatures in her service are primarily: Evil Dragons, Chromatic Dragons, Dragonspawn, Abishais, Evil Dragonborn, Kobolds, rogue Devils (leftovers from her time in Hell), and Angels (devoted to her, obviously), as well as the Red Hand cult, and greedy people;
• Kurtulmak, Patron of Kobolds, is one of her exarchs;
• In Eberron, she's not a deity per se (those are complicated in Eberron), but she is powerful. She's called "The Daughter of Khyber", and like most mega-fiends in that setting, she's bound deep underground, beneath Argonnessen in her case;
• In Dragonlance, she's called Takhisis, except that some Dragonlance fans insist that Takhisis is separate from Tiamat (and that Tiamat doesn't exist in Dragonlance), despite the fact that both are obviously the same in basically every way.

Here's what I'm curious about:

• Where did she live in between being an Arch-Devil and moving to Tytherion?
• What's her relationship with Zehir? Do they cooperate?
• What about Asmodeus, her old boss?
• Her five, main, Ancient Wyrm Chromatic Dragon consorts: are there names for them? (I realize that she's got lots of other consorts, too.)
• Are those five consorts considered exarchs?
• Do they have their own lairs within Tiamat's lair? Do they have their own hoards? Or do they all sleep together in a big pile with her and her gold?
• What's The Maggot Pit about?
• Has her lair, or at least her chamber, ever been mapped? How is it laid out? What does it look like? I assume it's a huge room filled with treasure and magma, but what about other elements? Lightning, Cold, Acid, and Poison; more importantly do these elemental features of her lair affect her consorts, who aren't all resistant to each?

Thanks in advance for your help, team!

 

[Drowbane]

Wikipedia is your friend.

"Tiamat presently has five consorts, who are great wyrms of each chromatic dragon species. Previous consorts include Apsu, Kingsu, Ephelomon, the red dragon Etiol, and the now-undead dragon Dragotha.

Tiamat's realm, known as the Dragonspawn Pits of Azharul or simply as Tiamat's lair, sprawls in a cluster of tall hills and mountains near a pillar made from the tormented heads of liars and a pit of maggots from which lemures emerge. One must fly (or, heavens forbid, swim) across the maggot pit to reach Tiamat's caves. Tiamat's lair contains the main gate to the second of the Nine Hells, Dis. To reach it, one must pass a chamber known as the Cave of Greed, which is filled with cursed treasure that compels the weak-willed to try to steal it. Tiamat has her own chamber within the complex, as do each of her five consorts, but it is possible to travel to Dis without disturbing her."

Tiamat was only a Lord of the Nine for parts of 1e. She has always had a lair on Avernus (until 4e it would seem).

 

[LostSoul]

I really want to say, in my campaign, that Tiamat is dead and her body is the world.

However, since She is Mother Chaos, She cannot truly die unless creation dies.

She created the dragons when the Gods bound the World Serpent; in the fighting, She was slain, and out of her bones the vault between heaven and earth was created.

When She was slain, her tears and blood fell to the World. Where they fell, magical reagents, gold, silver, and platinum were born. That is why She desires those who worship her to hoard wealth; it is not just wealth, but the body of Tiamat that they gather.

edit: I like the real-world ideas about Tiamat.

 

[Shemeska]

[*]She was once Lord (Lady?) of the First, in the Nine Hells;

She was listed as Lord of the First during 1st Edition, however this was retconned in all 2e and 3e since she was a goddess rather than an actual fiend. She still laired on Hell's first layer of Avernus, and had an interesting relationship with the archdevils. For instance her deific domain was adjacent to the main gate between Avernus and Dis, and in some capacity she and her consorts guarded the passage. Her relationship with Bel was sometimes frosty, but at the same time Tiamat worked rather closely with some of the members of the Dark 8 (the group of pit fiends empowered by Asmodeus and tasked with fighting the Blood War, as opposed to the other noble baatezu who ruled the various layers of Hell). In fact she worked closely enough with the Dark 8 that she actually conceived half-fiend/half-divine offspring with Cantrum.

[*]Creatures in her service are primarily: Evil Dragons, Chromatic Dragons, Dragonspawn, Abishais, Evil Dragonborn, Kobolds, rogue Devils (leftovers from her time in Hell), and Angels (devoted to her, obviously), as well as the Red Hand cult, and greedy people;

Abishai are interesting creatures, because while a great many of them serve Tiamat, they're proper baatezu and normally wouldn't be in the service of a deity unless she was paying the Lords of Hell for their service. However Tiamat had a hand in their creation, as it was a collaboration between herself and on the Dark 8.

And Angels serving Tiamat only pertains to the rather different definition of "angel" in 4e.

[*]Kurtulmak, Patron of Kobolds, is one of her exarchs;

Only in 4e, within the 4e cosmology.

[*]In Dragonlance, she's called Takhisis, except that some Dragonlance fans insist that Takhisis is separate from Tiamat (and that Tiamat doesn't exist in Dragonlance), despite the fact that both are obviously the same in basically every way.

The 1e MotP says that Tiamat and Takhisis are the same goddess. However all material after that point that actually addresses the topic makes it clear that they're different beings. That said, yeah it's blindingly obvious that Takhisis started out as a Tiamat-clone for DL.

Here's what I'm curious about:

• Her five, main, Ancient Wyrm Chromatic Dragon consorts: are there names for them? (I realize that she's got lots of other consorts, too.)
• Do they have their own lairs within Tiamat's lair? Do they have their own hoards? Or do they all sleep together in a big pile with her and her gold?
• What's The Maggot Pit about?
• Has her lair, or at least her chamber, ever been mapped? How is it laid out? What does it look like? I assume it's a huge room filled with treasure and magma, but what about other elements? Lightning, Cold, Acid, and Poison; more importantly do these elemental features of her lair affect her consorts, who aren't all resistant to each?

I can provide some answers to stuff that isn't specific to 4e.

Tiamat's consorts have names, but not all of them have been mentioned by name in sourcebooks, and well, Tiamat changes consorts like people change their socks: often. Off the top of my head, I can only think of two that have been mentioned by name: Ephelemon the red dragon consort who brokered the racial pact between githyanki and red dragons, and his successor Etiol (mostly known for an artifact named after him, gifted to him by the deposed archdevil Zariel, which may have once been possessed by Gith).

Tiamat's lair was mapped out in the 2e module Fires of Dis. As I recall, the consorts lairs were branched off of a central cavern, itself seperated from Tiamat's lair. All my books are currently in storage, otherwise I'd be more specific.

The Maggot Pit has been described two different ways. In 2e it was a spawning ground for the creation of lemures out of larvae, tended over by the baatezu. In 3.5 it was a pit filled with big worms that ate mortal souls, and beyond that I'd need to get the book - basically it tried to retcon baatezu use of larvae to create more of their kind.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

From what I understand, Tiamat likes pina coladas and getting caught in the rain. She is not into yoga and has at least half a brain. Some have even said she likes making love at midnight in the dunes on the cape.

IOW, in all seriousness, the posters above have covered it pretty well from a D&D standpoint.

You can find out more by reading about her origins in Mesopotamian mythology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiamat

 

[Klaus]

Also, Tiamat wasn't originally a deity at all. She was the progenitor of chromatic dragons in 1e, but her role wasn't much different from the one she had in the D&D cartoon, i.e. the ultimate evil dragon.

 

[Nightchilde-2]

Plus, she hates Venger.

 

[Nymrohd]

Plus, she hates Venger.

Don't we all?

As for her lair, as Shemeska said it is described in TSR 2608-Fires of Dis. The cavern in which she resides is not described in the Module, where the adventurers need to pass near its entrance to reach the Cave of Greed. They face a strong aura of fear even near the entrance and the module instructs that entering the cavern leads to instant immolation, no save allowed.

 

[ferratus]

The dislike among Dragonlance fans for Tiamat and Takhisis being the same is that in prior editions Tiamat was just an archdevil or lesser diety, rather than the ultimate power of evil in the universe (as she is Krynn). So it tends to deflate the majesty of her darkness to be a small fish in a big pond.

There is also some sense that Tiamat and Takhisis have diverged in flavour. In the Chronicles she was just a big 5 headed dragon ruling over a chaotic army of dragonmen and goblins. As the series progressed however, Takhisis took on a decidely more "lawful" slant, and fans began to argue her methods began to resemble Asmodeus and Zehir more than Tiamat.

I myself am not entirely sure that she was drifted that far, as Takhisis is still obsessed with entering the world and sitting on it like her own private hoard, which seems very much like the 4e Tiamat.

Of course, even though Dragonlance fans think Tiamat and Takhisis are two different beings, they are happy enough to steal all the prestige classes, feats, paragon paths, and other rules and flavour text surrounding Tiamat. Takhisis will never escape being a Tiamat clone, because the 5-headed dragon is too iconic an image for the setting. So powerful in fact, that I think most fans think that the killing of Takhisis was a colossal mistake.

 

[Dragonhelm]

Not every Dragonlance fan considers the two to be separate. In my own mind, Tiamat is an aspect (avatar) of the goddess Takhisis, much like how Bahamut is an aspect (avatar) of the god Paladine.

Tiamat and Bahamut are the inspiration behind Takhisis and Paladine. You can see this in their Istarian names (Tii'Mhut and Bah'Mut). Jeff Grubb is the one largely responsible for the deities in Dragonlance, taken from his home game, so that's where the original evolution came from. There has been some changes in evolution over the years. Most notably, Takhisis is now dead while Tiamat lives on.

In other worlds, such as the Realms, Tiamat and Bahamut are portrayed as lesser deities. In Dragonlance, they are two of the three of the major deities (alongside Gilean, neutral god of knowledge). As Ferratus mentions above, Dragonlance fans aren't too keen on seeing their major deities reduced to lesser deities. Personally, I just look at it as Takhisis and Paladine working on multiple planes, and putting their focus on Krynn, while lesser aspects work in other worlds.

While some Dragonlance fans consider the change an evolution, and others consider the deities to be one and the same, there is no doubt that there is a connection. So yes, Dragonlance fans often use rules and ideas centered around Tiamat and Bahamut in their Dragonlance games.

Plus, she hates Venger.

Venger is just misunderstood.

I did a 4th edition Venger conversion a while back, adapting him to the Dragonlance game. Now I need a game to fit him in...


Oh, and look in H4 Throne of Bloodstone for more information on her. Once you defeat Orcus and take his wand, the only way to destroy it is by placing it in Tiamat's heart!