How Important is Magic to Dungeons and Dragons? - Third Edition vs Fourth Edition

[Scribble]

"All abilities are magic, and magic is available to all" is so far from the implied reality of pre-4e D&D that some of those playing 4e D&D seem to have a very hard time accepting that this is the implied reality 4e is using.


RC

Your trying to use circular logic here that is incorrect.

It's not magic (unless you want it to be) so your statment is incorrect. You can explain it through mundane means (unless you've decided you don't want to, or you lack imagination.)

The option is available to anyone if they want to try it, but the DM will probably make it harder. IE they'll have to make a check of some type.

Having CaGI as a power just gives that player a bonus, in that he doesn't have the harsh penalties. (Akin to taking a feat to make sure you can't be hit by an AoO when you try the special ability.)

 

[Ariosto]

"Most of us will convert to RCFG by 2011." Maybe, or to other games reflecting the sensibilities we associate with D&D. We can still be in keeping with 35 years of tradition, just not with Wizbro's new products. It's like yuppies taking over a neighborhood and changing its character; the former residents need somewhere to live. Where's the soul food?

 

[Scribble]

If Power 1 has qualities A, B, C, and D, then an interpretation that ignores quality C or D doesn't successfully interpret the power, even if it is inclusive of the other three qualities. Hence, while as it stands you can play it any way you want to, the interpretations offered do not successfully interpret the power, as they ignore qualities of the power to make the mundane interpretation "successful".

I'm sorry you are unable to imagine how they can interpret al letters you care to throw out there man. I'm glad I don't need the rules to dictate how the world "works" to me.

Because the problems with C&GI are the most blatant. It is not alone -- the whole idea of a mundane power that is usable once per day is questionable (at best).

Why was it not a problem when barbarians did it?

In anycase it isn't realy usable only once per day. The rules on 42 clearly indicate that a player can attempt to do things that act as powers, but are not powers, and the DM can use 42 as a quick way to rule it.

No where does it say the player can't attempt to emulate a power's effects. That's al you if you're saying they can't. They can in my game.

 

[ExploderWizard]

I'm sorry you are unable to imagine how they can interpret al letters you care to throw out there man. I'm glad I don't need the rules to dictate how the world "works" to me.

A lot of rules for that stuff are not really needed. A simple guideline is that any power that requires putting common sense and logic on pause in order to accept is probably magic.

 

[LostSoul]

No, this is VERY bad game design and you can see an example of this with the TRIP/DISARM feats/manoeuvers in 3e.

What happens with these type of opt-out manoeuvers is that they either become super-efficient and that they get spammed OR that they are super worthless and thus they see use in a blue moon.

You might be right. That happens when you get a complex resolution system. I've seen the same thing in action in other systems where it's good game design, however.

I'm not bothered by Come and Get It, but if a situation arose where I was, I'd probably do some bargaining with the player for a different effect.

I guess that's how house rules are formed.

If it is a mundane power, then C&GI should be available to anyone to try at any time, and the "power" itself should effectively be a bonus.

I agree. I would resolve it slightly differently if the PC didn't have the power, but I'd allow anyone to try it. Each DM runs his game his own way, though.

 

[Henry]

Nope. It can only see something there to attack. It is mindless, thus can't be insulted, taunted etc,. Like a virus. It can't look at the potential host and decide it looks defenseless...

Tell that to the Romero-style zombies, who always grabbed the guys who were helpless or wounded first! Make it TOO mindless so as to not even be self-aware, and it can't distinguish a lamp post from a victim...

Besides, what about all those heroes in the killer bug or zombie horror movies who would shoot shotguns, yell, "Hey, you, over here!" etc. to distract the monsters from the other members while they make a getaway, sacrificing themselves in the process? Same basic principle - zombies/bugs/snakes/atomic mongooses see easy prey and come after it.

 

[Mad Mac]

Because the problems with C&GI are the most blatant. It is not alone -- the whole idea of a mundane power that is usable once per day is questionable (at best).

Meh. 3rd edition was littered with non-magical powers that were only useable one or more times per day. Didn't bother me before, doesn't bother me now.

I'm just saying, that because C&GI isn't terribly representative of martial powers as a whole, at best you can argue that it's a poorly designed power. As an extra special bonus, discussing some other power gives everyone a chance to come up with new arguements instead of copy and pasting stuff they wrote 6 months ago.

 

[Scribble]

A lot of rules for that stuff are not really needed. A simple guideline is that any power that requires putting common sense and logic on pause in order to accept is probably magic.

If that's the way you want to or have to see it, then I'm cool with that. That's all you. (And the rules won't even be effected by your choice.)

I just get annoyed when someone attempts to tell me I have to accept his idea of what is or isn't magic because he can't imagine a way for it to work without magic. (Or tries to go into a how this makes it not D&D because of his choice on how to view something.)

You can even call it supernatural if you want, and it still has no effect on anything in my opinion. It just means the game doesn't make a catagorical distinction between supernatural and mundane. It allows YOU to make that choice so you can make your game what you want.

 

[Mad Mac]

I agree. I would resolve it slightly differently if the PC didn't have the power, but I'd allow anyone to try it. Each DM runs his game his own way, though.

At a basic level, the power combines a sweeping blow with a pull/taunt effect. I'd be happy to allow the player to successfully "taunt" enemies with roleplaying and/or a skill check, but I probably wouldn't give them the ability to hit all adjacent enemies at once without the power.

 

[Scribble]

Tell that to the Romero-style zombies, who always grabbed the guys who were helpless or wounded first! Make it TOO mindless so as to not even be self-aware, and it can't distinguish a lamp post from a victim...

I've always tried to make undead and such more like animals. They don't have MUCH coherent thought, but they do have basic instincts that allow them to most effectively accomplish their goals.

So they instinctively go for the squishies, because that more effectivey allows them to eat "BRAAAAAAAAAAINS."