Will WotC ever get it right?
- Thread starter Marshall
- Start date
The chance of a blast 3 catching 9 targets is very, very low
Hence I said, Potentially...
(Never use words like Always, every time, everyone, etc etc)I expect WOTC to get it right about the same time they figure out "Shivering Touch" (a.k.a, kill a Great Wyrm dragon with ease) is an inherently broken spell.
From the earliest days of TSR, when they had to assign levels to spells I always wondered about how they decided "ok, this spell should be WHAT level again?"
From the earliest days of TSR, when they had to assign levels to spells I always wondered about how they decided "ok, this spell should be WHAT level again?"
You are making a pretty narrow interpretation of gaining power.
1. The Level 29 power is not replacing the level 25. You now have two of the big sticks to swing.
2. Types of resistences are not equal. Fire is more common.
3. You (in theory) have a better chance to hit at level 29 than at level 25, so damage SHOULD be more reliable on that 29 than the 25 was at 25.
4. Characters also gain other powers and abilities in between.
5. Some are class powers while others are path powers. With paths of niftyness elsewhere, you won't get as much oomph in some particular path powers.
Etc., etc.
Bleoberis De Ganis
First Post
Yeah, but getting two sticks that look very similar, and in fact the new one is a tad smaller than the older one... is a bit of a let down...
The two Abilities in Question: Acid/Thunder at 25, and Thunder/fire at 29?
Yes, Fire Resistance is more common, so lets make the one that is resisted less the one that is lower level? Just seems a bit backwards to me...
In theory yes, but in reality, at 29 you have maybe a 3% or something less chance to hit due to inflation of enemies' defenses compared to your to-hit bonuses... so yet again, level up and get less powerful.
No comment.
Some yes, some no... items seem to get better the higher you get, but a lot of this game seems to go downhill while enemies continue to gain power steadily...
In short, it sometimes seems that the saying should be "Retire at 1st level, for you will never seem as powerful as when you fight your first goblin!"
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
Probably in some ideal world there would be a nice linear upward curve on all powers. However with several 1000 published powers and power levels increased from the old 9 spell levels to now 30 it makes things fairly tough.
Plus as other people have pointed out, powers don't anymore HAVE to be strictly better at higher levels. It just isn't a necessity anymore. They wanted another similar power at level 29 to one they had a 25 so that you can take 2 similar powers (since you cannot double up anymore). Maybe the two should be listed in opposite fashion or have different damage dice, maybe. Or maybe the designers reasons are more subtle. They wanted a fire power at level 25, and they wanted a thunder power at level 29 but making it higher damage didn't balance well against other level 29 options, etc. In the end they came out with things as they are, which worked for them even if it seems a bit out of whack.
I also think that one of the things WotC consciously tried to do was get interesting powers into the hands of PCs at all levels, especially low level. Thus it is true that some of the 1st level daily powers seem good enough to be 5th level. They aren't so much trying to increment the level of the powers at 5th as they are broadening the overall choice and providing some stronger options in some cases.
As far as ranking powers in some kind of point system. Go ahead and try! I think you'll fail miserably because many powers are highly situational and thus become impossible to rate objectively. How good is Turn Undead? No spreadsheet can really answer that, it is either worthless or awesome depending on what monster is standing in front of you. There is no way you can assign points to modifiers either that will work reasonably. Changing one slight thing in a power can catapult it from uselessness to broken. You could make the same change to 12 other powers and it would hardly matter a bit for them. It is how all of the power hangs together and how its different parts interact with other rules that determines most of its strength. Sure, you can compare SOME powers in a reasonably meaningful way, like the ones the OP used, but I'm pretty sure nobody is going to ever figure out a way to determine if Thunderwave is better or worse than Cloud of Daggers. They are just not comparable, yet they are both fairly straightforward attack spells of the same level.
Plus as other people have pointed out, powers don't anymore HAVE to be strictly better at higher levels. It just isn't a necessity anymore. They wanted another similar power at level 29 to one they had a 25 so that you can take 2 similar powers (since you cannot double up anymore). Maybe the two should be listed in opposite fashion or have different damage dice, maybe. Or maybe the designers reasons are more subtle. They wanted a fire power at level 25, and they wanted a thunder power at level 29 but making it higher damage didn't balance well against other level 29 options, etc. In the end they came out with things as they are, which worked for them even if it seems a bit out of whack.
I also think that one of the things WotC consciously tried to do was get interesting powers into the hands of PCs at all levels, especially low level. Thus it is true that some of the 1st level daily powers seem good enough to be 5th level. They aren't so much trying to increment the level of the powers at 5th as they are broadening the overall choice and providing some stronger options in some cases.
As far as ranking powers in some kind of point system. Go ahead and try! I think you'll fail miserably because many powers are highly situational and thus become impossible to rate objectively. How good is Turn Undead? No spreadsheet can really answer that, it is either worthless or awesome depending on what monster is standing in front of you. There is no way you can assign points to modifiers either that will work reasonably. Changing one slight thing in a power can catapult it from uselessness to broken. You could make the same change to 12 other powers and it would hardly matter a bit for them. It is how all of the power hangs together and how its different parts interact with other rules that determines most of its strength. Sure, you can compare SOME powers in a reasonably meaningful way, like the ones the OP used, but I'm pretty sure nobody is going to ever figure out a way to determine if Thunderwave is better or worse than Cloud of Daggers. They are just not comparable, yet they are both fairly straightforward attack spells of the same level.
In short, it sometimes seems that the saying should be "Retire at 1st level, for you will never seem as powerful as when you fight your first goblin!"
Well definitely 21 if not 1. The new epic destinies are even MORE crazy than previous ones. Gain temporary HPs equal to the HPs of the monster that killed you? Oooookay... 1600 temp HPs, woo hoo! Hehehe. "You can't win, Darth. If you strike be down I shall become more powerful then you can possibly imagine."
Mistwell
Crusty Old Meatwad
What would people think of a spell at the higher level that simply said "you can recast a lower level spell you know that you have already cast, and change the energy type of that spell" or something like that? Essentially that is the situation we are talking about, though my text is more flexible.
I think they are trying to avoid that sort of thing, along with the possibility of powers that say something to the effect of, "Re-use any daily power of lower level but add an additional die of damage or modify the bonus/penalty by either a +1 or -1 at your choice"
