How Important is Magic to Dungeons and Dragons? - Third Edition vs Fourth Edition

Rounser answered the immediate question for me!

What I had in mind was how "Eurostyle" board games lay "theme" (what au courant D&Ders call "fluff") very superficially over the fundamentals of their design. Starting with the same abstract game, art direction could turn it as easily into one "about" any one of a number of subjects.

"Ameritrash" games, on the other hand, tend to start with a subject then attempt in some sense to model key features. What self-described wargamers are likely to consider a proper war game is a bit different from a merely "war-themed" game (although as with most such taxonomies things can get blurry at the edges).

There are other similarities in philosophy between 4E and the vogue in board games, but that is the most striking (and presently relevant) one.

What Gary Gygax meant by role-playing is utterly essential to play of old-style D&D. The question always posed to a player is, "What will you do?" That refers to the player acting as if "in the shoes of" his persona, seeing through its eyes.

The more "thespian" aspect of role-playing was something he apparently (and most old-time D&Ders, in my experience) considered at best a secondary consideration and at worst an intolerable distraction. (There are some perhaps subtle demarcations, which I won't go into now.) Even if one is inclined to hold that in higher esteem, I think the first aspect remains fundamental.

A hippogriff might as well "use magic" to fly, as it is an utterly fantastic creature. To reduce it somehow to something nonmagical seems to me rather contrary to the point of including it in the game in the first place.

That said, it does not follow that the magic of a heraldic/mythological beast falls under the rubric of "magic" in its technical, game-mechanical usage. The latter encompasses but a small portion of the realm of supernatural wonders.

It is from the role-playing perspective that martial powers and other aspects of 4E most strikingly stand out as magical. The criteria for "magicalness" need be no fancier than what common sense is likely to suggest, perhaps accounting for the kinds of intellect and knowledge a bit more common in the demographic of D&Ders than in the general public.

Some science-fictional things are "magical" in the sense of Clarke's Third Law, or in the sense of contradicting the laws of physics we currently know. Other things are highly implausible in other ways, and have obvious analogues in other fields of fiction.
 

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Not "boardgame level" abstract to this degree. Even HP weren't as abstract as they are now. Sorry, can't wriggle your way out of this one.

Because boardgames are bad, right? Can't have 'em influencing D&D, even though they've been doing that since...gosh, years now.

C'mon now. It's D&D. It's always been an abstract game about combating monsters. I could list off all the abstractions of the previous edition I'm familiar with (3.0/3.5), but it's late. It's one game full of numbers and charts being compared to ANOTHER game full of numbers and charts.

And I'm not trying to "wriggle myself" out of this one, that would imply a whole bunch of caring on my part. But thanks, rounser! I like to be told what I'm doing.
 

Because boardgames are bad, right?
No, but if I wanted D&D as a board game, I'd play something like Descent, Talisman or Heroquest. All three are great fun, but they don't replace pre-4E D&D, and nor should they.
C'mon now. It's D&D. It's always been an abstract game about combating monsters.
Not this abstract. This is as abstract and in places as difficult to map to anything believable or visualisable going on as a boardgame or card game, and you're having a lot of difficulty refuting that. For D&D (in it's true sense, not the new as-abstract-as-a-boardgame sense), that's poison, because depicting a believable fantasy world was it's stock in trade.

Oh dear, that doesn't figure in your oversimplified definition of what D&D is "about", does it? Heck, "killing things and taking their stuff" doesn't even mention traps or magic. It's a quip (see my sig), not an incisive insight into all that is important about the game, although it appears that 4E was unwisely designed around that quip. No wonder we're in such a mess.
 
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For D&D (in it's true sense, not the new as-abstract-as-a-boardgame sense), that's poison, because depicting a believable fantasy world was it's stock in trade.

Wasn't it the unbelievable aspect of D&D that led to the creation of games like Runequest?
 

What Gary Gygax meant by role-playing is utterly essential to play of old-style D&D. The question always posed to a player is, "What will you do?" That refers to the player acting as if "in the shoes of" his persona, seeing through its eyes.

What elements of 4E work against this, in your opinion?

I ask this because I never ran old-style games, and I want my 4E game to have that kind of style.
 

Wasn't it the unbelievable aspect of D&D that led to the creation of games like Runequest?
I get the feeling that "I can do a game that is better than D&D" spawned the entire RPG industry, in a way. But making D&D as abstract as a card game or board game in key places moreso than it ever was before is simply bad design for a game that purports to be D&D.

We have to visualise and believe this stuff, it's not supposed to be comparable in abstraction to M:tG, with it's own equivalents of M:tG's commonly nonsensical card combinations.
 
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I get the feeling that "I can do a game that is better than D&D" spawned the entire RPG industry, in a way. But making D&D as abstract as a card game or board game in key places moreso than it ever was before is simply bad design for a game that purports to be D&D. We have to visualise and believe this stuff, it's not fracking M:tG with nonsensical card combinations. Or, at least, it once wasn't.

I agree.

I've been trying to ask this question throughout this thread, though I don't think I rally have the words for it. I'll give it a shot.

In my game, I want to challenge the players. I want to challenge more than just their expertise with the tactical combat maneuvers. I want to see them use their ingenuity in pulling stunts that aren't covered in the powers. I want to challenge them strategically as well. (Hope that makes sense.)

Given that, what is the effect of having abstract combat or non-combat resolution? How does 4E work for or against my stated goals for the game?

I can't say that I'm really too concerned if healing surges represent Wolverine-type healing or if Come and Get It is a magical compulsion. What I don't know is how the abstract nature of these mechanics impacts the choices of the players.

For example: Assume hp/healing surges/damage means whatever we want it to at the time. The PCs get into a fight with a group of lizardmen scouts as they attempt to sneak into their lair. One of the lizardmen gets away after taking damage, and the PCs want to track him through the swamp.

Do I give them a bonus to track him because he's leaving a trail of blood? Do I only do that if he's bloodied? Do I make that decision as a DM on the spot? Do I require the player to describe the consequences of his successful attack so that there is no question?


Anyways, maybe I should fork this.
 

Elements of RuneQuest (one of my favorite games) often lauded as more realistic go back to "house rules" for D&D. The treatment of the combat round, for instance, evolved directly from the "Perrin Conventions" published in All the Worlds' Monsters Volume 2.

D&D Supplement I introduced some combat factors (such as weapon type versus armor type) translated from precursor Chainmail, as well as variable damage by weapon (1d8 for swords, multiple attacks for some monsters, etc.).

Supplement II included hit locations (not so "playable" without the larger stocks of hit points in the Blackmoor campaign), weapon length / combatant height adjustments, and diseases such as dysentery and cholera.

Supplement III divided the combat round into six movement segments and pre- and post- movement segments to regulate the timing of missile fire and spell casting. Dexterity, adjusted for a large variety of factors, was indexed on a table similar to those in the later games Star Fleet Battles and Champions.

These merely represented ideas being tried by one Dungeon Master or another and shared with his peers, albeit the originator was to some degree a "professional game designer". They were not in any sense officially binding, even (from what I have seen) for tournament play.

A "skill system" appeared in Empire of the Petal Throne. Spell points, critical hits and fumbles, and other variants were featured in The Arduin Grimoire.

That's just the barest tip of the iceberg of experimentation that was going on in the far-flung reaches of the D&D scene!
 
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<snippiedy snip>

For example: Assume hp/healing surges/damage means whatever we want it to at the time. The PCs get into a fight with a group of lizardmen scouts as they attempt to sneak into their lair. One of the lizardmen gets away after taking damage, and the PCs want to track him through the swamp.

Do I give them a bonus to track him because he's leaving a trail of blood? Do I only do that if he's bloodied? Do I make that decision as a DM on the spot? Do I require the player to describe the consequences of his successful attack so that there is no question?

Anyways, maybe I should fork this.


The DND level of abstraction allows for both and so it comes down to adjudication, by you, the DM. And a good rule of thumb: if it seems fun and makes sense to ya then run with it.

You may feel the urge to say this should always the case, but I wouldn't, some factor may affect bleeding in certain cases and some wounds would bleed worse than others. The DC will generally account for this, maybe use the lower DC because you imagine him stumbling injured, bleed profusely, not being cautious... And is easy to track.

It is the DM who set the tone for the game, not the rules. The level of abstraction is irrelevant as a good, imaginative, DM can make anything make sense and that is what I focus on.*

That's my take on it. And I think if one of my players said that they were looking for a blood trail I'd probably run with it and allow them to find blood splatter and use a lower DC than originally intended, but only to encourage player behaviour. You got to train them. :D

My 4e games are now reminding me of how I used to run my 2e games and that warms my cockles...


* I'm not implying that I'm a good DM or an imaginative one.
 

Hit points have always been magical, as Gary Gygax says on page 82 of the 1e DMG.

In addition to physical toughness they represent "skill in combat and similar life-or-death situations, the "sixth sense" which warns the individual of some otherwise unforeseen events, sheer luck, and the fantastic provisions of magical protections and/or divine protection."

Emphasis mine. So a 10th level 1e fighter without magic items or spell buffs is still magic.

Makes sense. A high level fighter can consistently survive falls from any height. How could he not be magic?
 
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