The Sandbox And The Grind

[Remathilis]

Our goal here is to generate grind-less encounters that are out of the adventurer's reach - without resorting to what many 4E defendants always propose here, namely not staging the fight at all.

"The dragon wakes up and breathes fire. You die."

...

What are we talking here as "out of the adventure's reach"? 5 levels over the PCs? 10?

Here's a simple [non-fiat] method.

A level 4 encounter is 875 XP. A level 9 elite is 800 XP. Therefore a level 9 Elite is roughly a level 4 encounter (if your anal, add a level 7 minion to make it truly 875) (Recall also that according to the DMG, a PC group can face one encounter 4 levels higher than them also, meaning this is a difficult but plausible challenge for 1st level PCs, as per the DMG).

A Bullete is a level 9 elite. It has 204 Hp, AC 27, Fortitude 26, Reflex 21, Will 21. Its basic attack has a +14 to hit for 2d6+7 (4d6+7 vs. prone), and it can burrow underneath foes (knocking them prone) and spray rocks in burst 2 for 1d6+7 damage. Oh, it can 2nd wind for 52 hp.

Compare that to a typical level 4 PC. 32-54 hp (depending on class and con), AC 17-23, +7 with implements, +10 with accurate weapons. The bullete can knock the PC prone as a move, and then use his standard to do 11-31 damage to that foe. That'll down your wizard quickly. And since the fighter needs a 17 or higher to hit and has no way to really do 254 hp to it, I wager it takes 6-8 rounds to TPK the party.

All from a level 4 encounter! So you want to make challenging encounter without the grind? Figure out what the max XP of an level-aprop encounter is, then use 1 monster of that value. (A level 13 encounter is the same XP as our bullete, I suggest a vrock.) I bet the PCs don't last 10 rounds!

 

[mlangsdorf]

The time our 2nd level party ran into an 9th level Solo Troll in IM77's sandbox game, we fought it until we were out of powers, hit points, and surges, and then WE RAN AWAY. Sure, it was a grind, and we resolved to start running away earlier when we knew we were overmatched.

Thus, when our 7th level party met a 13+ level Solo Archon, we stayed just long enough to realize we were overmatched (1 attack), and then we fled.

In a Sandbox game, the solution to the grind is players smart enough to realize that even if they win the fight, it's not worth the 3 hours of table time.

 

[S'mon]

IMO the grind is a perk in a Sandbox style game.

Encountering a vastly level-inappropriate dragon in 3ed would likely result in a TPK in 1-2 rounds. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it leaves the players little time to realise their predicament and react to it.

The same type of encounter in 4ed will also end in a TPK. But it will take more than 1-2 rounds. Unless the players have a quite bad grasp of the rules, they will quickly know that they cannot win the encounter through combat. That leaves the players with time for other options. Like running, grovelling, bargaining etc.

I'm not experienced in 4e, but this is my gut feeling. The 4e pinata effect that reduces lethality ought to make sandboxing more viable than in 3e. A long fight followed by retreat or victory is not nearly as bad as a TPK, IMO.

 

[LostSoul]

The time our 2nd level party ran into an 9th level Solo Troll in IM77's sandbox game, we fought it until we were out of powers, hit points, and surges, and then WE RAN AWAY. Sure, it was a grind, and we resolved to start running away earlier when we knew we were overmatched.

Thus, when our 7th level party met a 13+ level Solo Archon, we stayed just long enough to realize we were overmatched (1 attack), and then we fled.

In a Sandbox game, the solution to the grind is players smart enough to realize that even if they win the fight, it's not worth the 3 hours of table time.

Cool account of play.

I think the problem with 4E sandbox play lies in lower-level encounters, not higher-level ones.

 

[S'mon]

Not "singularly", no. But speed of getting through combat is an important consideration. You simply cannot explore the wilderness if every fight eats up large amounts of time. That makes 3E less than ideal too.

But D&D's "exploration = constant fighting" trope originated with 0e-1e, when fights were fast! There's no inherent reason to have combat all the time. How many fights did Lewis & Clark have on their lengthy expedition? One, I think. Most real-world explorers have none. D&D explorers will likely have more, but absolutely no need to have anything like the amount the (eg) 1e random encounter tables would indicate.

 

[LostSoul]

The 4e pinata effect

Pinata effect (immediate reaction, when reduced to 0 hp) * Mexican
Close burst 1; the target explodes in a burst of candy, dealing 2d6+4 sugar damage and all creatures in the burst contract type II diabetes.

 

[rounser]

But D&D's "exploration = constant fighting" trope originated with 0e-1e, when fights were fast! There's no inherent reason to have combat all the time.

No, there isn't. But why hamstring your sandbox campaign so you can use 4E when you could sandbox a lot more combat encounters in the same time with a faster playing D&D? There are other, potentially better suited options out there. [ame=http://www.amazon.com/Dungeons-Dragons-Rules-Cyclopedia-Allston/dp/1560760850/]Here's a link to the Rules Cyclopedia at amazon[/ame], for instance.

I'd also bridle at the suggestion that "exploration=constant fighting" in gygax/mentzer/holmes etc D&D. "Constant fighting" is more a 4Eism. Try weird magical fountains in the woods, deserted battlefields with smoking boots in the mud and tracks leading away, areas inexplicably devoid of birds and animals, deadfalls and snares, statues with hidden treasure, a hedge wizard's cottage etc. as part of what I'd consider exploration of a true D&D wilderness.

 

[LostSoul]

No, there isn't. But why hamstring your sandbox campaign so you can use 4E when you could sandbox a lot more combat encounters in the same time with a faster playing D&D?

There are no Warlords or Dragonborn in other editions.

 

[rounser]

There are no Warlords or Dragonborn in other editions.

You say this like it's a bad thing.

I'd also suggest good old Arr-Kelaan Hexmapper for sandboxing purposes, no matter the edition.

 

[Remathilis]

I'd also bridle at the suggestion that "exploration=constant fighting" in gygax/mentzer/holmes etc D&D. "Constant fighting" is more a 4Eism. Try weird magical fountains in the woods, deserted battlefields with smoking boots in the mud and tracks leading away, areas inexplicably devoid of birds and animals, deadfalls and snares, statues with hidden treasure, a hedge wizard's cottage etc. as part of what I'd consider exploration of a true D&D wilderness.

You mean those things don't exist in 4e? Can I hit them with my Steel Serpent Strike?