What is so special about Greyhawk?

[Verys Arkon]

Thanks everyone for answering my question in the OP. I think I can see what makes Greyhawk different from other settings more clearly now, and I'm inspired to read more about the setting's origins.

In a recent thread on WotC's forums, Chris Perkins listed several prerequisites for launching a campaign setting.

How do you feel Greyhawk measures up here?

Originally Posted by sigil_beguiler
It would be nice to here how WoTC goes about deciding what settings to build. Perhaps even a bit behind their building process.

Now THAT'S a multi-layered conversation that usually starts with us asking a bunch of questions and doing some research. Some questions that spring to mind whenever someone says the words "campaign setting" to me:

1. Is there a business need or opportunity for a new setting or a reincarnated old setting?

2. Where is popular culture heading? Can we create a setting that isn't irrelevant one or two years from now?

3. Are there any non-active settings that we're revitalizing in other arenas (digital games, novels, Hollywood, etc.)?

4. Is there an important niche that a new or old setting can fill?

5. Is there a particular setting that a significant number of D&D players want to see resurrected or reincarnated?

6. Is there a setting that we can turn into a $X million sub-brand with multiple revenue streams?

7. Can we design a setting that doesn't fracture the D&D audience into a dozen squabbling sects that utterly loathe one another (a la TSR circa 1997)?

 

[Riley]

As a Greyhawk fan:

In a recent thread on WotC's forums, Chris Perkins listed several prerequisites for launching a campaign setting.

How do you feel Greyhawk measures up here?

1. Is there a business need or opportunity for a new setting or a reincarnated old setting?

Well, they do promise to release one of these annually, so "yes."

2. Where is popular culture heading? Can we create a setting that isn't irrelevant one or two years from now?

Greyhawk will be no less relevant two years from now than it already is today.

3. Are there any non-active settings that we're revitalizing in other arenas (digital games, novels, Hollywood, etc.)?

How did TOEE (the video game) do? I haven't heard of any other Greyhawk tie-ins.

4. Is there an important niche that a new or old setting can fill?

Not really. It overlaps heavily with Forgotten Realms in flavor. Well, with 1e-3e FR, anyway.

5. Is there a particular setting that a significant number of D&D players want to see resurrected or reincarnated?

Yes, Greyhawk does have these.

6. Is there a setting that we can turn into a million sub-brand with multiple revenue streams?

It's never really caught on in the past as a distinct brand.

7. Can we design a setting that doesn't fracture the D&D audience into a dozen squabbling sects that utterly loathe one another (a la TSR circa 1997)?

I think it overlaps too much with FR, which means that the two camps can get all worked up over the trivial differences between them. Sort of like edition wars.

I love Greyhawk, and I may always run a Greyhawk game, but I don't see why WOTC should bother to publish a new edition of the world. Given Chris Perkins' criteria, Dark Sun seems to be a much better choice for the next setting. It's very distinct, and it has more potential for novels/movies/etc distinct from the D&D brand itself.

 

[pawsplay]

Again, going to disagree with you. That 6th level sheriff, if he was statted out by a module, likely had a magical weapon, magical armor and, quite possibly, another item or two.

I will note:
* This doesn't contradict what I said about the modules being exceptional circumstances. Thus, you could very well be right and you still would not have a reason to state you disagree with me about Greyhawk. You would have to furnish a different reason.
* I'd like to see some examples from modules to compare. I haven't looked at one of those things in ages.
* I didn't say anything about characters statted up in the modules. I said the world. I can flip through the NPC guidelines, the treasure tables, and the rest and quickly satisfy myself that a 6th level NPC is not likely, as the rules are set forth, to have many magic iterms, and is likely to have none. Thus, even if I run several Greyhawk modules, I can still, as I said, have the players go back to town and discover that it is still quite town-ish. The sheriff of a town in the grips of an evil conspiracy, or built right next door to a kobold mining operation, or that serves a town home to a special magic item that has been stolen, may very well be more exceptional than your average 6th level NPC.

 

[meomwt]

Having seen what happened to The Realms when WotC "re-invigorated" the setting for 4E, I'd be more than happy for Greyhawk to be quietly ignored by the Powers that Be. I'd much rather keep the Greyhawk I have now (FtA, LGG, Oerth Journal and the three Dragon AP's) than have Mordenkainen turned into a half-devil, Iuz convert to a Champion of Orcus and The Scarlet Brotherhood become a dance-troop.

As might happen

ETA: Though, if you look at Mike Mearls' Blog, his home campaign is set on Greyhawk (seemingly, City of Greyhawk), so there may be some play-testing going on there on the quiet. Shh!

 

[M.L. Martin]

7. Can we design a setting that doesn't fracture the D&D audience into a dozen squabbling sects that utterly loathe one another (a la TSR circa 1997)?

Am I the only one who saw this and thought "Now you're worrying about this?"
(I was around in 1997, and the setting snobbery and squabbles could get bad, but only among the hardest fringe, like a few who demanded people be fired over a Greyhawk reference in On Hallowed Ground, did it approach the venom of the present edition wars.)

 

[Gentlegamer]

Greyhawk is a campaign where there can be barbarians and cavaliers in the same party, and it makes sense.

 

[GSHamster]

This maybe wrong, but I've always thought of Greyhawk as setting that deliberately tries not to be epic. It has history and events, but they seem to be local and personal in scope, rather than world-shaking.

But I never really played much Greyhawk, so that may be an outsider's perspective.

 

[grodog]

The folio isn't the same thing as the box set. The box set was released in 1983 and the folio in 1980. Only the original D and G series predated the folio in their entirety. Additionally, two of the tourney modules (S1 and S2) and Village of Hommlet (T1) predated the folio. All of the other original Greyhawk adventure modules were published the same year as the folio or came later.

Just to clarify the publishing chronology, here's the the GH products through 1983 with the box set, pulled from Russ Taylor's site, with a few tweaks of my own:

1976 Lost Caverns of Tsojconth tourney (see grodog's site @ Greyhawk's "Lost" Dungeon Levels:  S4 The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth for info on the publishing history of Tsojconth/S4)

1978

[ ] 9022 S1 Tomb of Horrors
[ ] 9016 G1 Steading of the Hill Giant Chief
[ ] 9017 G2 The Glacial Rift of the Frost Giant Jarl
[ ] 9018 G3 Hall of the Fire Giant King
[ ] 9019 D1 Descent into the Depths of the Earth
[ ] 9020 D2 Shrine of the Kuo-Toa
[ ] 9021 D3 Vault of the Drow
[ ] Quag Keep [Novel, Andre Norton]

1979

Lost Tamoachan - Origins Convention tourney
Ghost Tower of Inverness - Origins Convention tourney

[ ] 9026 T1 The Village of Hommlet
[ ] 9027 S2 White Plume Mountain
[ ] 9023 B1 In Search of the Unknown -- some GHC
[ ] 2011 Dungeon Masters Guide (1st edition) -- some GHC
[ ] Dungeons and Dragons coloring book (set in Greyhawk!)


1980

[ ] 9039 A1 Slave Pits of the Undercity
[ ] 9032 C1 The Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan
[ ] 9033 S3 Expedition to the Barrier Peaks
[ ] 9035 Q1 Queen of the Demonweb Pits
[ ] 9038 C2 Ghost Tower of Inverness
[ ] 9021 D3 Vault of the Drow (1980 revision, blue cover)
[ ] 9025 The World of Greyhawk Folio
[ ] 9031 The Rogues Gallery (1st edition) -- some GHC

1981

[ ] 9040 A2 Secret of the Slavers Stockade
[ ] 9041 A3 Assault on the Aerie of the Slave Lords
[ ] 9042 A4 In the Dungeons of the Slave Lords
[ ] 9045 L1 The Secret of Bone Hill
[ ] 9046 I1 Dwellers of the Forbidden City
[ ] 9058 G1-3 Against the Giants
[ ] 9059 D1-2 Descent into the Depths
[ ] 9062 U1 The Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh
[ ] 9022 S1 Tomb of Horrors (1981 revision, green cover)
[ ] 9026 T1 The Village of Hommlet (1981 revision, moss cover)
[ ] 9027 S2 White Plume Mountain (1981 revision, orange cover)
[ ] 9032 C1 The Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan (1981 revision)
[ ] 9033 S3 Expedition to the Barrier Peaks (1981 revision)
[ ] 2012 Fiend Folio -- some GHC

1982

[ ] 9061 S4 The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth
[ ] 9063 N1 Against the Cult of the Reptile God
[ ] 9064 U2 Danger at Dunwater
[ ] 9112 WG4 The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun

1983

[ ] 9057 L2 The Assassin's Knot
[ ] 9066 UK1 Beyond the Crystal Cave
[ ] 9072 EX1 Dungeonland
[ ] 9073 EX2 The Land Beyond the Magic Mirror
[ ] 9076 U3 The Final Enemy
[ ] 9101 UK2 The Sentinel
[ ] 1015 World of Greyhawk Campaign Setting [boxed]
[ ] 2016 Monster Manual 2 -- some GHC

Dragon Magazine was also a huge source for GH data during these years, and if you're curious, see Dragon Magazine Greyhawk Article Index and Roger Moore's Revised GH Campaign Index @ http://www.canonfire.com/cfhtml/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=getit&lid=12

So, even by the end of 1980, there were a decent number of GH products available to purchase, most of them being modules.

 

[grodog]

Not sure if it's even necessary, or if it'd just end up as filler, but you could always present a chapter on "Playing in the different eras of Greyhawk." Similar to what many Star Wars rulebooks did, where they explain not just the whole history, but also insert the "playable action points" of the various eras.

This is a great idea, neuronphaser, and one that should be an introductory article at Canonfire!. You can also extend the idea a little further by applying the rules systems to the eras of history/publishing, and matrix them to help people see that the Greyhawk Wars are just as viable an era when played with 1e as 4e, for example, or help folks see how 576 CY would change when run under OD&D vs. 3.5e.

 

[Bumbles]

Dungeons and Dragons coloring book (set in Greyhawk!)Dungeons and Dragons coloring book (set in Greyhawk!)

Most awesome product ever!