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"HF" vs. "S&S" gaming: the underlying reason of conflict and change in D&D

To clarify what I mean by "narrative control", it is the power to dictate what happens in the story rather than deferring to any rule specific to the situation at hand.

Designing such a game is a matter of deciding how to apportion and limit such power.

Here's as an example of how something like that might play out. There's a GM, whose role in this particular hypothetical game is to have in mind a very general plot structure (in particular, a satisfyingly dramatic climactic scene) and direct the action along those lines with "course corrections". Basically, the GM has narrative control by default.

The GM plans to present a scene in which the heroes get ambushed by Loathly Lurkers, and one of them is sorely wounded with a poisoned arrow, but they slay all but the lead Lurker. That worthy, in his hasty escape, loses a map and missive that the heroes find. Her expectation is that the players will add to the story some solution to the poison problem, then use the map to infiltrate an enemy fortress and rescue the ally indicated in the letter as being held there.

However, when the first arrows fly, a player challenges the GM's narrative control. Chips are bid and dice are rolled, and the player wins. The player says that the arrows have non-deadly tips that inject a poison with a soporific effect. The Lurkers capture the heroes and take them to wherever Ally X is being held. Nobody challenges that.

That scene being resolved, narrative control returns to the GM. The players have ended up where she wanted to get them, but under different circumstances -- and by their choice. It was, in narrative terms, a good strategic choice. If the players had chosen some other direction for the next scene, then the GM would have just had to run with it and see how to use it to advance the plot.
 
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I think you might be on to something here but your terminology is wrong. Old school D&D doesn't particularly resemble classic sword & sorcery fiction. I don't remember Conan dying from a poison spider bite in the first story, then being reincarnated as a dryad.


Conan, no, but Nathan Brazil was.
 

The S&S gaming style, the way the original post described it, plays like an impartial board game.

False. It plays like a role playing game.

No Name said:
It doesn't lend itself to myth creation very well. A player can easily have character death due to some random chart roll.

True and true. Random character death is a possibility and "myth creation" is not one of the goals expressed or implied.
 

I define genres by their central high conceptual themes, woldview, values and morals. I try to make trappings and tropes not that relevant in defining them.

That is why I think that, while old D&D had elves, dwarves, hobbits and clerics, it was still very strong on the S&S genre.

Then you're defining genre wrong.

D&D is not S&S, it is not HF, it is not SF, or anything other then D&D.
 

I think the necessity of a Absolute Good and Absolute Evil is a defining feature, even if there is no "higher power" that controls/creates it. That said, your second definition opens up a lot more options (such as Star Wars' the Force) than your original premise.
Now we're getting somewhere.

I've been wondering all along what the existence of one or more gods in the setting/novel/game/real world had to do with this discussion at all.

That said, the Force itself in SW-land is not much more than a tool - albeit a really imposing one - used by agents of both Good and Evil (and by agents of neither) en route to attempting to achieve their ends. In fact, the SW universe follows your idea, that Absolute Good and Absolute Evil reside in mortals rather than anything higher.

Lanefan
 




Not a Name said:
I can't agree with this. It has nothing to do with morality.

People playing S&S are just playing a game. Nothing more. It's no different than playing Monopoly for example. If you roll an 8 and that makes you pay the $75 luxury tax, then tough luck. That's just what happens.

High Fantasy players are participating in creating a myth. I don't want to go into it here and now, but Joseph Campbell has written some excellent stuff on the subject.

That's the difference between the two. One is just a board game, the other is about the hero's journey.

Pretending to be elves slaying dragons is pretending to be elves slaying dragons. Or humans slaying dragons in the case of S&S. What exactly makes High Fantasy 'mythbuilding' and S&S 'a game'? It is all a game, no matter how much you want to elevate one over the other. 'I don't want to get into it now' is a lazy way out of it, and presenting Campbell like it is newfound revelatory end-all-be-all scholarship borders on insulting to what is generally speaking a community of very erudite individuals.

Untrue. The Well World series is sword and sorcery, and among the suggested reading list in the dmg.

Um. Rationale? This is a very hard sell considering the trappings of the series include:

A starship
A classic 'planetary distress beacon' trope
An ancient alien race, chock full of advanced technology
A living computer
Space colonization

And the list goes on. Arguing that Well World is sword and sorcery seems almost as preposterous as Rowling's assertation that Harry Potter is not fantasy when it contains wizards, dragons and werewolves.
 
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