Goodman rebuttal

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Finally, someone lays out some hard facts and trends from real-world business experience. Kudos, Joe.

I'd love to see the research for the book you didn't publish. Maybe someday you can either publish it or post it. I think it would be fascinating reading about a little-seen side of our hobby.
 

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I read his post and I certainly didn't see it as a rebuttal of Mr Peterson at all. It was extremely interesting, but it did not address the schism of the fanbase or the health of 3PP (other than his own) at all. It seemed to be a refutation of the "4e is not doing well". He didn't address the poisonous GSL nor the effect of the digital tools nor either's affect on 3PP products.

In short, it was very interesting, but comparing it to Orcus' post, it's really apples and oranges.

I don't doubt his industry expertise, nor his business acumen. But he seemed to state his credentials and then his conclusions, with nothing objective to back it up in between.

It reminded me of all the court cases I've seen. I worked for a few years as a Judge's clerk, sitting next to him in Court, and watched about 100 or so cases played out in court, both jury and non-jury. Plus, I've been to court to argue cases for my clients.

Anyhow, to use a personal injury case as an example, if the potential for winning/losing a lot of $$ is great enough, each side will hire an "expert" to come to court to testify. Usually a doctor. Each doctor will examine the accident victim, and based on that examination, and the examination of the medical records both past and current, render a diagnosis as to the extent of the injuries, what the cause of the injuries was, and the future prognosis of the accident victim.

Each side's doctor, both eminently qualified with credentials out the wazoo, renders completely different and contradictory opinions. They can point to the same charts and x-rays and say totally different things.

That same dynamic of hiring experts to toot the horn you want tooted exactly the way you want it tooted is played out in every type of case I've seen, from personal injury, to land use, to construction defect, to divorce, to business litigation. Each side's expert look at exactly the same set of objective facts and says completely different things which supports the viewpoint of whichever side they are testifying for.

Other than beating up the personal credentials of the other side, or hammering them on their interpretation of the facts, one of the most effctive ways to discredit the other side is to point out all the various ways they have a financial interest in saying what they are saying. Asking a doctor, for example, how much they testify in cases as opposed to practicing medicine, how much they charged for the diagnosis, how often they do plaintiff's work as opposed to defendant's work, how many times they have testified for that particular lawyer's firm, how much they got paid to testify, the likelihood of a future financial interest in the outcome---such as the patient going to them to be treated if they are awaded money for future medical expenses, etc.

Just as an aside, I'd pay a few bucks to read a pdf of the business history of the industry he talked about in the post...I'm particularly interested where he got the objective concrete numbers for sales figures going back 30 years. As far as I can tell, that's not publicly available information.
 

That's a very good point, joethelawyer. Motivation is probably something you should be examining with just as much, or more, scrutiny than credentials.
 

Just as an aside, I'd pay a few bucks to read a pdf of the business history of the industry he talked about in the post...I'm particularly interested where he got the objective concrete numbers for sales figures going back 30 years. As far as I can tell, that's not publicly available information.

You know I was wondering about his comparison of 4e sales to (A)D&D sales bertween 1974-1981 and '83 to '00... I was under the impression (from what I believe were discussions here) that even WotC didn't have exact or totally reliable sales numbers for these years from TSR. Now I'll readily admit I could be remembering something wrong or mistaken, but I don't think I am...am I?
 

That's a very good point, joethelawyer. Motivation is probably something you should be examining with just as much, or more, scrutiny than credentials.

So are we now doubting Joe Goodman's word because he has vested interest in seeing his company earn a profit, which right now is tied to the health of the 4e market?
 

That's a very good point, joethelawyer. Motivation is probably something you should be examining with just as much, or more, scrutiny than credentials.

That's always a good idea, whether it's Joseph Goodman or Joethelawyer.

-Q.
 

So are we now doubting Joe Goodman's word because he has vested interest in seeing his company earn a profit, which right now is tied to the health of the 4e market?
I don't think anyone around here is claiming that Joe is lying. However, it is clear that he has a vested interest in viewing things in a certain light. There's nothing wrong with that; it's just the way it is. Despite that, I still found his post interesting.
 

Interesting. Dont agree with a bunch, namely game stores, and his 47 stores isnt exactly a large sample, but interesting none the less.
 

To respond to Remathilis:

Not "doubting his word"...I certainly don't think he is dishonest (nor do I think the experts Joethelawyer mentioned intend to be at all dishonest).

However, Goodman DOES have a vested interest. That interest, along with the fact that he got in on "the ground floor" releasing product along with the 4e release (even before they signed the GSL) colors his interpretation of the facts.

What he basically said is that sales of 4e product FOR HIM and the market for HIS 4e product is strong enough.

That I have no doubt at all about.

Whether that is generalizable to the market as a whole (including other 3pps or even to WotC) is something I do not know.

Would he like it to be? Yep. Is it the case? I imagine that he believes it is the case...and for the reasons above, I can understand why he believes it. That doesn't make it so.



Goodman said that distributors are not an issue. Clarke said they were. Who do I believe?

Both of them.

They're not an issue for Goodman and they are an issue for Clarke. Why? Probably timing, but that's only my guess.
 

So are we now doubting Joe Goodman's word because he has vested interest in seeing his company earn a profit, which right now is tied to the health of the 4e market?

Hopefully not.

I've heard nothing but positive things said about Joe in the past.

However...

It may be one of those cases where both Clark and Joe are correct from their own viewpoint. Joe didn't give any numbers, he essentially just said 4E is doing as well as it has done in previous times.

Also, if 4E is doing as well as 3E was - why aren't more 3PPs jumping on board? Or is the price for them to jump on board providing things like spinner racks to game and hobby stores? In the early 3E era, product was enough. Now it seems that you need more than a product to get in stores, you have to actively nurture the relationship.

Anyway, I guess it confirms that GG won't be supporting Pathfinder. :)

Was fun while it lasted....
 

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