When Orcus posts to a D&D 3pp community and creates a feeling of doubt about the viability of 3pp and thus their relevance in the hearts of the fans Joe Goodman has to rise the consumer morale, hasn't he? Seriously why did he make his only comment only right now? Wouldn't this support my argument here?
Goodman rebuttal
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When Orcus posts to a D&D 3pp community and creates a feeling of doubt about the viability of 3pp and thus their relevance in the hearts of the fans Joe Goodman has to rise the consumer morale, hasn't he? Seriously why did he make his only comment only right now? Wouldn't this support my argument here?
Indeed. I suspect he mostly wanted to retire, but it is strange that he didn't (or perhaps couldn't) sell the business as a going concern. The name alone should have been worth something.
jdrakeh
Front Range Warlock
This thread is a good example of why some publishers take long hiatuses from publishing and/or give it up altogether.
thecasualoblivion
First Post
Asking for evidence of whether or not 4E is doing well is like asking for empirical evidence about whether god exists. No matter how much you blather about it, the evidence is not
going to arrive. Using the "there is no evidence" argument when there never will be evidence is discussing things in bad faith. "There is no evidence" does not disprove anybody's opinions or statements given the circumstances of these discussions. Using this argument shows a lack of a real counter argument.
The following are opinions I hold:
1. 4E is doing well
2. 4E is selling D&D books well enough to firmly put 3.5E D&D "in the past"
3. 3PP are not terribly important to the D&D brand
4. 3PP are not in serious competition with WotC, not even combined
One could argue I have no evidence of any of this. Evidence of this is something we will never have, and I see no point in arguing over a lack of evidence. If you disagree, state why and give your reasons.
going to arrive. Using the "there is no evidence" argument when there never will be evidence is discussing things in bad faith. "There is no evidence" does not disprove anybody's opinions or statements given the circumstances of these discussions. Using this argument shows a lack of a real counter argument.
The following are opinions I hold:
1. 4E is doing well
2. 4E is selling D&D books well enough to firmly put 3.5E D&D "in the past"
3. 3PP are not terribly important to the D&D brand
4. 3PP are not in serious competition with WotC, not even combined
One could argue I have no evidence of any of this. Evidence of this is something we will never have, and I see no point in arguing over a lack of evidence. If you disagree, state why and give your reasons.
BryonD
Hero
FLGS became a dying breed well before 4E.
I doubt Paizo stubbing his store's toe killed it nearly so much as Amazon's blow to its head.
yeah this. Amazon, ebay and discount places hurt the FLGS more than Paizo subscription model....
thecasualoblivion
First Post
Yes, and a downturn for FLGS has nothing to do with M:tG cooling off or being a slow time for Games Workshop.
Amazon and discount places never hurt FLGS in terms of M:tG, though eBay might have. None of those three affected Games Workshop sales that much.
Amazon and discount places never hurt FLGS in terms of M:tG, though eBay might have. None of those three affected Games Workshop sales that much.
Well, for what it's worth, FLGS have been living and dying since the industry began...
True, but Amazon is very nearly a complete competitor with nothing much to do with the FLGS, whereas Paizo should conceivably want the FLGS to at least look on them somewhat favorably. It's like how SJGames doesn't offer regular discounts on their own products sold through Warehouse 23. Why? Oh yeah, because they don't want to upset other retailers.
Yes, Amazon is bad for FLGS. So are rising Fuel Prices and a poor economy, and so is not opening on the weekends because you get to hung over on Friday, but that doesn't mean that there are legit grievances to be found.
This thread is a good example of why some publishers take long hiatuses from publishing and/or give it up altogether.
Honestly the show is put up by the publisher's side in this case.
If there is a demand there will be some offer at least. Of course too much offer will create a crash : enter OGL bloat. After the crash things need some time to settle, of course. Orcus said that 4e failed to create the initial explosive take off that 3e did. And he blames this to the seemingly "crash protection" regulation (enter GSL).
Then Joe Goodman enters aggressive: no actual data, just a round of highly explosive special effects to create some impression. But I believe he has been working so far to build some muscle to flex. And rightly so he is flexing it when he can. Now what did you expect the fans on a thread like this to do? I am asking seriously here because I fail (totally) to see your point.
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Shemeska
Adventurer
I can see this. Except for used books, I haven't purchased any RPG book from an FLGS in the last four years. Everything has been through Amazon.com (amazon prime shipping is awesome) and to a lesser degree from Paizo's online store and whatever the name is for Catalyst's store for Shadowrun.
Any browsing of physical books tends to happen at GenCon, which is the only time of the year I'll buy books without the sort of discounts I can get online.
Of course, the shift to online sales away from FLGSs also impacts best sellers lists too (since AFAIK sales in FLGSs don't tend to count as much or at all compared to big box stores, amazon, etc). But that's for another discussion entirely.
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