How do we WANT magic to work (Forked Thread: ... medieval war...)

[Doug McCrae]

It's about verisimilitude, Danny. The avoidance of modern terms tricks the audience into thinking that, at least on some level, the imaginary world is real.

The way actual medievals would have perceived the word psionics is irrelevant. They don't play in our games. We care about the way the players, or readers if it's a published product, perceive the terms. It's the connotations that are important here, not the referent.

Using Expedition to the Barrier Peaks as an example:
ID Badge - bad
Talisman possessed of the power to open certain portals - good

Proper use of language is a big deal in secondary world creation. Ask Tolkien if you don't believe me.

 

[drothgery]

I want magic to work like it does in Conan stories. Is that too much to ask?

No problem.

Only martial classes are available to PCs, who can only use magic via rituals. Develop your own set of rituals with Conan-esque flavor. Villians can use Conan-esque magic via DM fiat.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

It's about verisimilitude, Danny. The avoidance of modern terms tricks the audience into thinking that, at least on some level, the imaginary world is real.

The way actual medievals would have perceived the word psionics is irrelevant. They don't play in our games. We care about the way the players, or readers if it's a published product, perceive the terms. It's the connotations that are important here, not the referent.

Proper use of language is a big deal in secondary world creation. Ask Tolkien if you don't believe me.

"Verisimilitude" is defined in the MW Dictionary as the quality or state of being "verisimilar"...which is defined as:

Verisimilar:

1 : having the appearance of truth : probable
2 : depicting realism (as in art or literature)

Don't get me wrong- I understand what you're saying about language and the willing suspension of disbelief.

I just don't suffer that in regards to "psionics," and reject the idea that how actual people in an era analogous to the typical fantasy setting would have used a word is irrelevant.

Within the context of a quasi-medieval world, any term that could have existed in that time- again, like "television"- is fair game IMHO, and satisfies the quality of verisimilitude, assuming that it is used in a way as a person of that era would have used it. This would indeed be "proper use of language," despite our having a different, modern understanding of the word.

So, "television" as having "far-seeing" or as an alternate term for a device like a telescope (which, BTW, was also called the perspicillum, conspicillum, specillum, and penicillium before telescope "won the battle") is fine, using it for the watching of entertainment on crystal balls in every house would be disruptive.

Similarly, a word like "Atom" has several meanings & modern connotations, but is quite an old term, and would have been used by an Alchemist or Natural Scientist. It might be disruptive, but it still has verisimilitude.

Now, the more divergent a fantasy world gets from our own past, the stronger the argument about verisimilitude gets...but only up to a point.

Middle Earth? While it has sciences of some kind- advanced metallurgy enough to make fine steels, medieval style fortresses, etc.- it also seems to lack some of the tech we'd find in a more closely analogous 15th-16th century world...like sophisticated lenses to make telescopes, clockwork automatons or gunpowder. Part of that can probably be attributed to Sauron's effect on the world.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

It's about verisimilitude, Danny. The avoidance of modern terms tricks the audience into thinking that, at least on some level, the imaginary world is real.

The way actual medievals would have perceived the word psionics is irrelevant. They don't play in our games. We care about the way the players, or readers if it's a published product, perceive the terms. It's the connotations that are important here, not the referent.

And I maintain that it's use is typically used as a cop out. People don't hate psionics because it "wrecks their verisimilitude," they say it does that because they hate psionics.

 

[Doug McCrae]

I feel that 'atom' is fine, provided it's used in the original Greek sense of the indivisible. 'Atomic power', not so fine.

We'll have to agree to disagree about 'television'. I think it's jarring because the term is so strongly associated with the modern world, representing an almost ubiquitous technology, something most of us spend hours using every day.

'Psionics' is also a particularly bad term to use in a quasi-medieval setting because it was specifically created to sound modern. To make the magical seem non-magical. You're fighting against Campbell's propaganda, and it's strong propaganda, to make the powers of the mind seem like something technological, comprehensible, part of the modern world. He's trying to make what is really magic seem like it's engineering.

I think another term than psionics should be used, at least by the game world's inhabitants, and probably by the game rules. Because of Campbell's PR job, 'psionics' is almost the worst possible term a GM can use if he's trying to simulate a medieval type of world.

If he isn't, if he's going for something more Vancian, a setting that could be the far future of our world, then it's probably fine.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

We'll have to agree to disagree about 'television'. I think it's jarring because the term is so strongly associated with the modern world, representing an almost ubiquitous technology, something most of us spend hours using every day.

I probably wouldn't use "television" except in rare circumstances- I was trying to find a word that has a modern meaning but old linguistic roots that could have been differently used in a previous era.

"Torch" was another one, showing that evolution in meaning (at least in English English speaking countries).

'Psionics' is also a particularly bad term to use in a quasi-medieval setting because it was specifically created to sound modern.

I think another term than psionics should be used, at least by the game world's inhabitants, and probably by the game rules.

While I agree to a certain extent, the term itself is often just an excuse- many psioniphobes would reject the system if you called it "Turkish Delight."

 

[wingsandsword]

The default world in D&D isn't Middle-Earth, it's Dying Earth. It's the far future. Magic and science mix. Gamers who want to turn D&D into Middle-Earth, with its much tighter set of sources and use of language, have some work to do.

The default D&D world is a pastiche of a variety of fantasy and mythological sources.

Dying Earth is one of those, where D&D got most of it's (pre 4e) magic system.

Middle Earth is another one of those, where D&D got a lot of it's PC races, a few monsters, and at least a few influences for a character class or two.

Mythologies from around the world added a variety of monsters, other novels contributed other ideas. Old 70's Kung Fu movies added the Monk (as it was in D&D long before martial arts anime hit American shores), and yes some sci-fi elements were added in from some sources of fantasy novels set in the far future. Within the main body of D&D works, only Expedition to the Barrier Peaks really muddled science and fantasy. Some D&D worlds, like Forgotten Realms, explicitly state in their that modern electronics don't work there (however psionics do work, albeit they are rare).

Of those sources, your typical gamer is going to be most familiar with Middle Earth, and it's a lot of people's idea of a typical "fantasy world" that isn't a D&D setting, and as you can depict Middle Earth decently well with most editions of D&D by simply removing some parts that don't fit I'm not going to think ill of gamers that don't immediately understand the original inspiration for many parts of D&D. This is especially true since a lot of those sources are novels which have faded into relative obscurity in the past few decades.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

This is especially true since a lot of those sources are novels which have faded into relative obscurity in the past few decades.

I blame the Macarena.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Doug, putting aside "psion" for a minute- but keeping our discussion of it in mind for context- let me ask this question:

Given that "psychic" has modern connotations of hucksters, con artists & 900 numbers, or that "mentalist" has modern connotations of a stage magician, what term would you suggest for the overall umbrella term under which we'd group the classes from the XPH and CompPsi?

 

[Doug McCrae]

what term would you suggest for the overall umbrella term under which we'd group the classes from the XPH and CompPsi?

Damn, now I have to do some work instead of just criticising.

How about 'natural magic', 'thought magic', 'internal magic', 'psyche', 'psychomancy' or the somewhat Tolkienesque 'unseen craft' or 'unseen art'.

I believe in the Middle Ages natural magic was contrasted with demonic magic, powers that derived from the Devil. Of course it's not the case that in D&D non-psionic powers are all demonic but it could be that this is either what psionicists believe, or maybe it's anti-wizard propaganda.

In terms of effects I think the magic in LotR is a good fit for psionics, it's more about precognitive visions and mind reading (ie psychic powers) than Vancian fireballs and prismatic sprays. My understanding is that Tolkien in LotR tends to avoid using the word 'magic' to describe powers that do seem magical, so his writing should be a good source of ideas for alternative terminology.