Hobbit4Hire$
Villager
Hello everyone.
I have been somewhat dissatisfied by the way "divine magic" and the divine in general are handled in various TTRPGs, including Dungeons & Dragons. I wanted to allow for the concept of faith and genuine belief, as well as different schools of thought in a world. However, I also wanted the kind of superhuman scheming and shennanigans that happen in works such as Epic poetry like The Iliad or The Ramayana or The Aeneid.
However, I wanted to avoid the whole "divine magic works on faith" sort of thing. To me, that just seems like a bit of a cop-out. "It works because you believe in it", to me, sounds a bit like "It works because God said so". It is like the "God-of-the-gaps" fallacy, but replaced with a "Belief-of-the-gaps". Worldbuilders don't know how to properly explain or conceptualize divine magic, so they just say that "belief-did-it."
For help, I have been looking into the history of the various classes in Dungeons & Dragons. According to the what I have read, the idea behind the Cleric class originated when the early players ran into a vampire that was unbeatable, so the class of "vampire hunter" was created, based on the character of Van Helsing in the Hammer Horror films played by Peter Cushing, which morphed into the "priest" class, which later became the "cleric" class. (Havard 2011; Maliszewski; Old Geezer 2006)
Looking back at the original novel Dracula, the character of Dr. Van Helsing was not really presented as a particularly "holy" figure. While he is a faithful Catholic, he is not depicted as receiving some sort of superpower that is unique to him because of his devotion. In short, he does not have "divine magic" that could be lost if he were to no longer follow the tenets of his faith.
Rather, Van Helsing is presented as a very learned man, and his various "powers" are the product of his knowledge of various techniques and tools that allow him to be effective at combatting vampires, acquired from study and lore. For example, Van Helsing uses Skeleton Keys for picking locks to break into Dracula's lairs, and he carries around a Silver crucifix (Stoker 1897, Ch. XIX) He also carries around various objects that can ward off Dracula, and seem to work regardless of the devotion of the bearer of the crucifix. (Stoker 1897, Ch. II) Van Helsing also knows that a Sacred Wafer that repels Dracula. (Stoker 1897, Ch. XXI) Also, similar to herbal medicine and botany, Van Helsing carries around Garlic to ward off the threat of the vampiric disease. (Stoker 1897, Ch. XIX)
There has been some speculation that the character of Van Helsing was inspired by Georg Andreas Helwing, a Lutheran pastor who also worked as a physician, who had a keen interest in what we would call the paranormal and supernatural, and who worked to treat disease among his congregation. (Macabre Mary 2020) Since the first "Cleric" character was a bishop, I also think of the medieval bishops that commanded armies, such as the Bishop Arn who repelled Norse raiders in Saxony in 884. (Friend 2015, 48) This makes sense, as clergy int he medieval time were often the most educated people of their time, educated at medieval cathedral schools. (Friend 2015, 91) Similar to Van Helsing's knowledge of garlic, medieval minks made wide use of herbal medicine. (Voigts 1979, 260) Medieval monks were also involved in the practice of alchemy, as well as research and innovations in metallurgy. (Booth 2017, 195)
All of this has lead me to conclude that, in both historical contexts, as well as fictional inspiration, the original "Clerics" got their various "powers" and skills not from devotion (although they certainly had that), but from extensive education, knowledge, and training.
Looking back, what is interesting is how the concept changed over time. AFAIK, the cleric today is essentially the party's healer or medic.
I was thinking of how to homebrew the Divine classes to better reflect the historic roots. I was inspired to do this because of the overall dissatisfaction with how concepts such as faith and belief were dealt with in most TTRPGs. I recognize that in most pulp fantasy and whatnot, beings called "gods" are a very obvious empirical fact.
From the start, I am treating "magic" as something akin to physics or engineering. This approach is very similar to the approach to that seen in supplements such as Thomas Wallace's The Theory of Magic. To me, this just makes sense. For example, let us take a typical fantasy setting, like Dragonlance. In that setting, dragons and wizards and wizardry are normal, typical phenomena of the world which can be intersubjectively experienced by anyone, and which can be studied, quantified, predicted, and controlled by the vast majority of people. In fact, in Dragonlance, the local experts of such phenomena would be the wizards themselves (the word "wizard" comes from "one who is wise"). The wizards would be the local equivalent of the scientific community. As such, dragons and wizards and wizardry are not paranormal, but rather normal.
(EDITED, March 3, 2024) Upon discussion with other posters, I can think of various solutions:
1) Devotional magic/techniques. These are techniques or "magics" designed to help oneself, and others, stick to a particular lifestyle or value system. This is similar to how monks, or soldiers, use various techniques to keep themselves and others to a specific code of behavior. Here, I am inspired by Poul Anderson's The High Crusade, where the aliens view the prayer of the Englishman as some kind of psycho-somatic trigger (pandabrett). They are really good at focus. Different schools of thought of course view this in different ways. Theists might say they are inspired by the divine, non-theists might say it is accessing their untapped potential, etc. The existence of "magic" would enable various techniques or technologies I was thinking that there would be 2 classes:
In terms of specific classes, instead of Bards or Clerics, there are Frontline chaplains. I was inspired by stories of real-life chaplains who fought alongside the soldiers, Soviet commissars, as well as Norse berserkers or Greek berserkers, who would get themselves and others to undergo enthousiasmos (literally "being indwelled by a god") to raise morale and improve combat performance. These would be similar to fighters, but they would be very good at boosting themselves and others. I am thinking of having passive buffs, or debuffs, or allowing buffs or debuffs as a free action. They can make fighters perform specific attacks better, or aid wizards in casting spells better, etc. They could even help themselves and others channel specific types of combat damage. This class could have various specializations. Some that come to mind:
-Apotropaic: Focuses on defense, particularly any attacks on the mind or the soul, as well as detecting and any overcoming any direct assault, or indirect trickery
-Enthusiast: Able to get oneself and others to "channel" various gods or moods (depending on one's metaphysical interpretation).
2. "Sponsored" magic. These are those that are able to channel power from an empirically observable entity. Think like the Green Lanterns granted powers from the Guardians of Oa or how modern special forces serve, and are supported by, their government. In Pathfinder, these sponsors would be mythic characters at least. Some people worship these beings as gods, others just view them as powerful but ultimately mundane beings, like the way the Athar from Planescape view the "gods" as merely "powers". For this one, I can think of only one class at the moment.
In my opinion, this would be a prestige class, called a Proxy / Champion / Vicar / Vicārius. This one I am having struggle with. This is the character that explicitly gets powers from an empirically real "god", or "mythic character", via some sort of contract. Again, think James Bond as the champion of Mi6, Harry Dresden as Winter Knight, or the way modern proxy soldiers or spec ops get access to their country's best tech in exchange for service and obedience.
My one caveat is that my putative prestige class "Proxy" would get empirical power from empirical beings. These are the kinds of "lower-case-g-gods" one typically finds in pulp fantasy, epic poetry, comic books, and TTRPG. These beings are demonstrably real, but they have real limits, and do not require any kind of faith or argumentation. Whether or not they are gods or worthy of worship is also something I wanted to leave open for characters, both in the world and outside, to decide for themselves. That is why I called such beings "Sponsors". This is meant to evoke the idea that these Proxies are supplied techniques/spells from Sponsors, sort of like how modern governments supply modern weapons to their proxies via "state sponsorship".
However, I wanted it to be tailored to each specific "domain". For example, I never understood why a god of mindless destruction, like Pathfinder's Rovagug, would want to be served by the traditionally bookish cleric. with the attendant obligations and taboos. Functionally speaking, this would mean that someone who wants to be a Proxy for a specific god would need to have a prerequisite. For example, to serve something like Rovagug, one needs to have a prerequisite class like Barbarian.
Also, each sponsor would have a code that needed to be adhered to. A God of Destruction can grant their faithful proxy access to the Domain of Destruction spells/techniques, but in exchange, the proxy must live accordance with a Code of Destruction. So, for example, if you serve the God of Destruction, you may be forbidden from living in a town, or you may be obligated to keep a specific area free of any civilization by destroying any buildings or constructions that people try to create.
3. Esoterica a.k.a. Hunting Science. This is meant to recreate characters like the above-mentioned Abraham Van helsing. This is someone who si good at collecting obscure lore, in particular vulnerabilities.
Doing some quick research, I think that Pathfinder 2nd Edition class Thaumaturge works very well.
4. The genuinely "supernatural".
Anything genuinely "supernatural" or "miraculous" occurs I would keep as largely under GM control. This is meant to be realistic. In real life many alleged supernatural or miraculous events, whether divine or demonic or other, are said to be rare and often unpredictable, even by the devout.
What do you think? I would love to hear any suggestions you might have. Thanks everone.
Works Cited (Chicago, author-date)
Booth, Christopher. 2017. "Holy Alchemists, Metallurgists, and Pharmacists: The Material Evidence for British Monastic Chemistry." Journal of Medieval Monastic Studies 6: 195-215
Friend, Nicholas Edward. 2015. “Holy Warriors and Bellicose Bishops: The Chur arriors and Bellicose Bishops: The Church and Warfare in Early Medieval Germany.” Master's Thesis. San Jose State University.
Havard. 2011. "[Characters] Bishop Carr - First D&D Cleric." Havard's Blackmoor Blog. [Characters] Bishop Carr - First D&D Cleric
Macabre Mary. 2020. "Inspiration for Van Helsing and Vampire Hunters." Puzzle Box Horror. Last updated April 15, 2020. Inspiration for Van Helsing and Vampire Hunters
Maliszewski, James. 2010. "The Original Cleric." Grognardia. Last updated July 15, 2010. The Original Cleric
Old Geezer. 2006. #27 Post to "Re: [Historical] Where did the Cleric/Mage split come from?" RPG.Net, May 23, 2006, [Necro][Historical] Where did the Cleric/Mage split come from? | Tabletop Roleplaying Open
pandabrett. 2021. "Poul Anderson’s The High Crusade." Goodman Games. Last updated March 26, 2021. Poul Anderson’s The High Crusade|Goodman Games
Stoker, Bram. 1897. Dracula. New York: Grosset & Dunlap. Online. Project Gutenburg. The Project Gutenberg eBook of Dracula, by Bram Stoker
Voigts, L. E. 1979. "Anglo-Saxon Plant Remedies and the Anglo-Saxons." Isis 70 (2): 250-268.
Wallace, Thomas. 2022. The Theory of Magic: A 5e Homebrew Sourcebook. The Gorilla of Destiny.
I have been somewhat dissatisfied by the way "divine magic" and the divine in general are handled in various TTRPGs, including Dungeons & Dragons. I wanted to allow for the concept of faith and genuine belief, as well as different schools of thought in a world. However, I also wanted the kind of superhuman scheming and shennanigans that happen in works such as Epic poetry like The Iliad or The Ramayana or The Aeneid.
However, I wanted to avoid the whole "divine magic works on faith" sort of thing. To me, that just seems like a bit of a cop-out. "It works because you believe in it", to me, sounds a bit like "It works because God said so". It is like the "God-of-the-gaps" fallacy, but replaced with a "Belief-of-the-gaps". Worldbuilders don't know how to properly explain or conceptualize divine magic, so they just say that "belief-did-it."
For help, I have been looking into the history of the various classes in Dungeons & Dragons. According to the what I have read, the idea behind the Cleric class originated when the early players ran into a vampire that was unbeatable, so the class of "vampire hunter" was created, based on the character of Van Helsing in the Hammer Horror films played by Peter Cushing, which morphed into the "priest" class, which later became the "cleric" class. (Havard 2011; Maliszewski; Old Geezer 2006)
Looking back at the original novel Dracula, the character of Dr. Van Helsing was not really presented as a particularly "holy" figure. While he is a faithful Catholic, he is not depicted as receiving some sort of superpower that is unique to him because of his devotion. In short, he does not have "divine magic" that could be lost if he were to no longer follow the tenets of his faith.
Rather, Van Helsing is presented as a very learned man, and his various "powers" are the product of his knowledge of various techniques and tools that allow him to be effective at combatting vampires, acquired from study and lore. For example, Van Helsing uses Skeleton Keys for picking locks to break into Dracula's lairs, and he carries around a Silver crucifix (Stoker 1897, Ch. XIX) He also carries around various objects that can ward off Dracula, and seem to work regardless of the devotion of the bearer of the crucifix. (Stoker 1897, Ch. II) Van Helsing also knows that a Sacred Wafer that repels Dracula. (Stoker 1897, Ch. XXI) Also, similar to herbal medicine and botany, Van Helsing carries around Garlic to ward off the threat of the vampiric disease. (Stoker 1897, Ch. XIX)
There has been some speculation that the character of Van Helsing was inspired by Georg Andreas Helwing, a Lutheran pastor who also worked as a physician, who had a keen interest in what we would call the paranormal and supernatural, and who worked to treat disease among his congregation. (Macabre Mary 2020) Since the first "Cleric" character was a bishop, I also think of the medieval bishops that commanded armies, such as the Bishop Arn who repelled Norse raiders in Saxony in 884. (Friend 2015, 48) This makes sense, as clergy int he medieval time were often the most educated people of their time, educated at medieval cathedral schools. (Friend 2015, 91) Similar to Van Helsing's knowledge of garlic, medieval minks made wide use of herbal medicine. (Voigts 1979, 260) Medieval monks were also involved in the practice of alchemy, as well as research and innovations in metallurgy. (Booth 2017, 195)
All of this has lead me to conclude that, in both historical contexts, as well as fictional inspiration, the original "Clerics" got their various "powers" and skills not from devotion (although they certainly had that), but from extensive education, knowledge, and training.
Looking back, what is interesting is how the concept changed over time. AFAIK, the cleric today is essentially the party's healer or medic.
I was thinking of how to homebrew the Divine classes to better reflect the historic roots. I was inspired to do this because of the overall dissatisfaction with how concepts such as faith and belief were dealt with in most TTRPGs. I recognize that in most pulp fantasy and whatnot, beings called "gods" are a very obvious empirical fact.
From the start, I am treating "magic" as something akin to physics or engineering. This approach is very similar to the approach to that seen in supplements such as Thomas Wallace's The Theory of Magic. To me, this just makes sense. For example, let us take a typical fantasy setting, like Dragonlance. In that setting, dragons and wizards and wizardry are normal, typical phenomena of the world which can be intersubjectively experienced by anyone, and which can be studied, quantified, predicted, and controlled by the vast majority of people. In fact, in Dragonlance, the local experts of such phenomena would be the wizards themselves (the word "wizard" comes from "one who is wise"). The wizards would be the local equivalent of the scientific community. As such, dragons and wizards and wizardry are not paranormal, but rather normal.
(EDITED, March 3, 2024) Upon discussion with other posters, I can think of various solutions:
1) Devotional magic/techniques. These are techniques or "magics" designed to help oneself, and others, stick to a particular lifestyle or value system. This is similar to how monks, or soldiers, use various techniques to keep themselves and others to a specific code of behavior. Here, I am inspired by Poul Anderson's The High Crusade, where the aliens view the prayer of the Englishman as some kind of psycho-somatic trigger (pandabrett). They are really good at focus. Different schools of thought of course view this in different ways. Theists might say they are inspired by the divine, non-theists might say it is accessing their untapped potential, etc. The existence of "magic" would enable various techniques or technologies I was thinking that there would be 2 classes:
In terms of specific classes, instead of Bards or Clerics, there are Frontline chaplains. I was inspired by stories of real-life chaplains who fought alongside the soldiers, Soviet commissars, as well as Norse berserkers or Greek berserkers, who would get themselves and others to undergo enthousiasmos (literally "being indwelled by a god") to raise morale and improve combat performance. These would be similar to fighters, but they would be very good at boosting themselves and others. I am thinking of having passive buffs, or debuffs, or allowing buffs or debuffs as a free action. They can make fighters perform specific attacks better, or aid wizards in casting spells better, etc. They could even help themselves and others channel specific types of combat damage. This class could have various specializations. Some that come to mind:
-Apotropaic: Focuses on defense, particularly any attacks on the mind or the soul, as well as detecting and any overcoming any direct assault, or indirect trickery
-Enthusiast: Able to get oneself and others to "channel" various gods or moods (depending on one's metaphysical interpretation).
2. "Sponsored" magic. These are those that are able to channel power from an empirically observable entity. Think like the Green Lanterns granted powers from the Guardians of Oa or how modern special forces serve, and are supported by, their government. In Pathfinder, these sponsors would be mythic characters at least. Some people worship these beings as gods, others just view them as powerful but ultimately mundane beings, like the way the Athar from Planescape view the "gods" as merely "powers". For this one, I can think of only one class at the moment.
In my opinion, this would be a prestige class, called a Proxy / Champion / Vicar / Vicārius. This one I am having struggle with. This is the character that explicitly gets powers from an empirically real "god", or "mythic character", via some sort of contract. Again, think James Bond as the champion of Mi6, Harry Dresden as Winter Knight, or the way modern proxy soldiers or spec ops get access to their country's best tech in exchange for service and obedience.
My one caveat is that my putative prestige class "Proxy" would get empirical power from empirical beings. These are the kinds of "lower-case-g-gods" one typically finds in pulp fantasy, epic poetry, comic books, and TTRPG. These beings are demonstrably real, but they have real limits, and do not require any kind of faith or argumentation. Whether or not they are gods or worthy of worship is also something I wanted to leave open for characters, both in the world and outside, to decide for themselves. That is why I called such beings "Sponsors". This is meant to evoke the idea that these Proxies are supplied techniques/spells from Sponsors, sort of like how modern governments supply modern weapons to their proxies via "state sponsorship".
However, I wanted it to be tailored to each specific "domain". For example, I never understood why a god of mindless destruction, like Pathfinder's Rovagug, would want to be served by the traditionally bookish cleric. with the attendant obligations and taboos. Functionally speaking, this would mean that someone who wants to be a Proxy for a specific god would need to have a prerequisite. For example, to serve something like Rovagug, one needs to have a prerequisite class like Barbarian.
Also, each sponsor would have a code that needed to be adhered to. A God of Destruction can grant their faithful proxy access to the Domain of Destruction spells/techniques, but in exchange, the proxy must live accordance with a Code of Destruction. So, for example, if you serve the God of Destruction, you may be forbidden from living in a town, or you may be obligated to keep a specific area free of any civilization by destroying any buildings or constructions that people try to create.
3. Esoterica a.k.a. Hunting Science. This is meant to recreate characters like the above-mentioned Abraham Van helsing. This is someone who si good at collecting obscure lore, in particular vulnerabilities.
Doing some quick research, I think that Pathfinder 2nd Edition class Thaumaturge works very well.
4. The genuinely "supernatural".
Anything genuinely "supernatural" or "miraculous" occurs I would keep as largely under GM control. This is meant to be realistic. In real life many alleged supernatural or miraculous events, whether divine or demonic or other, are said to be rare and often unpredictable, even by the devout.
What do you think? I would love to hear any suggestions you might have. Thanks everone.
Works Cited (Chicago, author-date)
Booth, Christopher. 2017. "Holy Alchemists, Metallurgists, and Pharmacists: The Material Evidence for British Monastic Chemistry." Journal of Medieval Monastic Studies 6: 195-215
Friend, Nicholas Edward. 2015. “Holy Warriors and Bellicose Bishops: The Chur arriors and Bellicose Bishops: The Church and Warfare in Early Medieval Germany.” Master's Thesis. San Jose State University.
Havard. 2011. "[Characters] Bishop Carr - First D&D Cleric." Havard's Blackmoor Blog. [Characters] Bishop Carr - First D&D Cleric
Macabre Mary. 2020. "Inspiration for Van Helsing and Vampire Hunters." Puzzle Box Horror. Last updated April 15, 2020. Inspiration for Van Helsing and Vampire Hunters
Maliszewski, James. 2010. "The Original Cleric." Grognardia. Last updated July 15, 2010. The Original Cleric
Old Geezer. 2006. #27 Post to "Re: [Historical] Where did the Cleric/Mage split come from?" RPG.Net, May 23, 2006, [Necro][Historical] Where did the Cleric/Mage split come from? | Tabletop Roleplaying Open
pandabrett. 2021. "Poul Anderson’s The High Crusade." Goodman Games. Last updated March 26, 2021. Poul Anderson’s The High Crusade|Goodman Games
Stoker, Bram. 1897. Dracula. New York: Grosset & Dunlap. Online. Project Gutenburg. The Project Gutenberg eBook of Dracula, by Bram Stoker
Voigts, L. E. 1979. "Anglo-Saxon Plant Remedies and the Anglo-Saxons." Isis 70 (2): 250-268.
Wallace, Thomas. 2022. The Theory of Magic: A 5e Homebrew Sourcebook. The Gorilla of Destiny.
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