Why I think you should try 4e (renamed)

[Dannyalcatraz]

I was under the impression this was a discussion and not a particularly vitriolic one.

I agree, its been pretty quiet.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

Now imagine that the naked guy is even better at dodging blows ie his base unarmored (and unclothed) AC is 5. Can you picture it? There's no reason an NPC who isn't a reject from a Shaw Brothers movie can't have a base unarmored AC equivalent to chain mail.

See what I mean about being mired in D&D-isms?

But thos D&D-isms are why some of us play the game, if leaving them behind is mandatory, it's no wonder some people think 4e is not D&D, no matter how good the game is.

 

[Korgoth]

???? Ok, I think conversing with both Erogaki and BryonD has got me all flummoxed

But then the 4e system isn't arbitary as you explain it. Tack on another 5 points for being a 10th level NPC and the AC in the 4e hits 19/20. Your example would ALSO apply to a PC.

Ok, what level was your PC as something is very weird here....A 10th level PC should be able to hit an AC of 21 without much trouble IMO.

Are we talking about the half-level mechanic or "how the NPC gets their numbers"?

I don't know where the 10th level thing came from... maybe someone else's example.

The campaign I played in was at level 4 or 5 when I dropped. My elven ranger needed a 10 to hit this pirate... which was the number I almost always needed to hit everything at every level.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Now imagine that the naked guy is even better at dodging blows ie his base unarmored (and unclothed) AC is 5. Can you picture it? There's no reason an NPC who isn't a reject from a Shaw Brothers movie can't have a base unarmored AC equivalent to chain mail.

But don't his higher HP already partially reflect an improved ability to dodge, parry, or roll with the blows? If you improve his AC on top of that, you're creating a steeper power curve.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Yep- kind of like some of the more aberrant 1Ed modules with farmers who were 15th level fighters and the like.

Which is NOT how WotC or 3PPs want to recapture that "old school" feel.

 

[Eridanis]

Oh look.. another edition war. This is new and exciting! I'm sure you'll convince the people who've enjoyed whatever edition they've been playing and love to suddenly stop and "convert". Seriously... this is beyond old. I play in a 4e and a 3.5 game and enjoy them both. Why is that so difficult to comprehend?

The reason this thread is still open is because people have been pretty much avoiding personal attacks, staying respectful, and keeping on topic. Trust me, this would have been slammed closed if it was getting out of hand.

Next time, please report a post you think is out of line instead of posting in the thread and accidentally starting a fight that needn't happen. And welcome to the boards!

 

[AllisterH]

But don't his higher HP already partially reflect an improved ability to dodge, parry, or roll with the blows? If you improve his AC on top of that, you're creating a steeper power curve.

Given that 4e doesn't allow for CON to affect HP after 1st level a la pre 1e-3e, the increasing AC compensates for this. A 4e 10th level fighter with a CON of 20 starts off with a HP of 35 but at 10th level, he'll only have gained 54 HP (6 hp per level after 1st for fighters and other defenders).

The 3e fighter will start with 15 HP and gain on average 10 HP (avg die of d10 + CON modifier) per level after and that's assuming the 3e fighter doesn't get a CON stat booster

(Hmm..now that I look at it, a 20 CON wizard in 3e actually by around level 18 will have more HP on average than the 20 CON 4e fighter)

Given that pre 4e, every other defense stat increases, 4e simply put EVERYTHING on the same track....

re: Pirate with AC of 21.
Sorry Korgoth, but when you said that you encountered a bare chested pirate with an AC of 21, I thought your DM had pulled the example pirate from the monster manual 2 which has pirates as 9th/10 level opponents and do have an AC of 23.

As well, exactly needing a 10 to hit everything? That's very weird as well since unless you fight monsters of the exact same level AND role, you shouldn't be needing the same number (generally speaking the range is +/- 2) and that's without incombat modifiers (leader boosting defenses, youre flanking etc...in my experience the range is usually +/- 5 or 6)

 

[Mallus]

But thos D&D-isms are why some of us play the game...

Oh sure... I'm not criticizing anyone's attachment to a particular set of mechanics. My point was only that there's nothing inherently unrealistic about a pirate in a flouncy pirate shirt being hard to hit (and that if you really can't conceive of how Mr. Pirate Shirt has such a high AC, you're probably mired in D&D-isms).

... if leaving them behind is mandatory, it's no wonder some people think 4e is not D&D, no matter how good the game is.

Again, sure. But I would point out that there's precedent in D&D for an unarmored person having an AC equivalent to that of an armored one, hence my mentioning the monk ie, the 'rejects from a Shaw Brothers movie'.

 

[Mallus]

But don't his higher HP already partially reflect an improved ability to dodge, parry, or roll with the blows?

Yes. A combatant's ability to dodge and roll with blows is represented in D&D by both AC and hit points. You could represent Captain Pirate Shirt's dodging ability strictly by using a higher HP total, or by raising his base AC, or through a combination of the two

If you improve his AC on top of that, you're creating a steeper power curve.

I seem to recall higher level monsters/opponents having both better AC's and more hit points in, well, every edition of D&D I've played.

 

[Rechan]

Yes. A combatant's ability to dodge and roll with blows is represented in D&D by both AC and hit points. You could represent Captain Pirate Shirt's dodging ability strictly by using a higher HP total, or by raising his base AC, or through a combination of the two

The caveat here is that inflating his HP is just as much "Cheating" as it is inflating his AC. Because one has to account for the HP inflation.