Why I think you should try 4e (renamed)

Minions actually don't work the way described above because that kobold minion would still die in one hit from that 1st-level party that just came in through the other door in the room.
If you hit them.

A monsters average life expectation is based on its hit points and the likelihood of hitting it. In a way, you could classify it with a formula like "Hit Points x Defense", with a few extra weighing terms. A Minion at higher level shifts the factor from HP to Defense. In a mathematical perfect XP system, one could actually try, this mythical product value could be a Minions XP value.

Monsters in 4e exist in some Heisenbergian state wherein their "normal" or "minion" status solely depends upon the level of the first party to step into the door. Once that state is fixed by party A, when party B enters the room, the "role-playing handwave" of why minions make sense is destroyed: their existence is solely a reflection of PC power.
By RAW, a Kobold Minion is always a Kobold Minion, and a Kobold Skirmisher is always a Kobold Skirmisher.

The selection whether you pick a (hypothetical) level 9 Kobold Minion instead of a Level 2 Kobold Skirmisher against your 10th level happens out of the game during a "metagame" phase - your encounter or adventure design.


One way to make minions more formidable, is to significantly increase their defense stats such that there's only a 20% chance (or less) of hitting them, while still only having one or a low number of hit points. They could be the guards which actively obstruct the players from entering a room.
This is also a formidable way of making them more difficult to run. If you give them hit points, you have to track them. One of the things that makes running large battles in D&D 4 easy is that you don't track the Minions hit points. Most of the time, you don't even have to apply status effects to them, since most of these effects come with hit points, and a Minion dies if he takes damage.

Of course there are exceptional cases. Powers that deal damage without an attack mean automatic death for a Minion. One thing I have considered is to give Minions a Resist X value depending on level or tier, basically giving them a damage threshold. Most attacks that deal automatic damage deal only very little of it. You still don't need to track anything, you just always have to roll damage for a Minion. But that happens most of the time anyway...
 

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If you hit them.

A monsters average life expectation is based on its hit points and the likelihood of hitting it. In a way, you could classify it with a formula like "Hit Points x Defense", with a few extra weighing terms. A Minion at higher level shifts the factor from HP to Defense. In a mathematical perfect XP system, one could actually try, this mythical product value could be a Minions XP value.

I agree, with some reservations. For monsters your concept is true, but the minion effectively reduces one side of the equation to an irrelevant state, greatly changing the durability probability. For example a minion has at minimum of a 5% chance of outright death per attack, which is obviously absent from other creatures.

By RAW, a Kobold Minion is always a Kobold Minion, and a Kobold Skirmisher is always a Kobold Skirmisher.

The selection whether you pick a (hypothetical) level 9 Kobold Minion instead of a Level 2 Kobold Skirmisher against your 10th level happens out of the game during a "metagame" phase - your encounter or adventure design.

I agree. I was referring to explaining minions as the poster I quoted explained them. Minion's cannot be said to be the same creature "with which you struggled at lower level (you needed 4-5 hits) is very easy to kill at 9th level (1 hit)." Such an explanation places monsters in a state of uncertainty. That said, this is the most common role-playing reason that I have heard used to support the minion concept.

joe b.
 
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Hobbit and He-Man -- two great flavors that might taste great together (if that's your thing). Frodo, though, is not all that, and Sauron is no Skeletor.

Bad example. I know them both, I love them both, and D&D isn't particularly well-suited to either. :)

Try Conan and Cloud Strife (Final Fantasy VII). :)
 

I don't think the natural 20 rule exists in 4e....I thought it was there but I don't see it the "attack roll" explanation...so minions shouldn't have an automatic 5% chance of death..
 

The minion concept is entirely indefensible outside of a meta-game argument designed to promote increased opponent numbers to facilitate a combat system highly-focused upon advantageous movement and multiple variations on movement constraints while providing a illusion to the player of a sense of power and might.
There's another reason for them. Minions are a class of opponent that decouple attack and defense values from hit points. Meaning that they can provide a reasonable degree of challenge to a party without too much additional bookkeeping (seeing as they have 1 HP, effectively).

In previous editions, this class of opponent didn't exist. If a creature could hurt a mid-to-high level party, then it could automatically take a more-or-less proportional amount of hurt in return (and thus requiring more accounting of said units of hurt).

The minions concept falls solidly into a type of role-playing in which reality is based upon the PCs power levels.
The reality in an RPG is ultimately the backdrop for telling stories with and about the PC's. Most, if not all, role-playing is essentially of this type.

Monsters in 4e exist in some Heisenbergian state...
Can we have a moratorium on invoking Heisenberg, please? Pretty please??
 


I agree, with some reservations. For monsters your concept is true, but the minion effectively reduces one side of the equation to an irrelevant state, greatly changing the durability probability. For example a minion has at minimum of a 5% chance of outright death per attack, which is obviously absent from other creatures.
Yes, it changes the "curve" describing his death chance, but if you were really just interested in "average death probability by round", you could create a fixed point.

I agree. I was referring to explaining minions as the poster I quoted explained them. Minion's cannot be said to be the same creature "with which you struggled at lower level (you needed 4-5 hits) is very easy to kill at 9th level (1 hit)." Such an explanation places monsters in a state of uncertainty. That said, this is the most common role-playing reason that I have heard used to support the minion concept.
I see it as a "modelling" thing. We use models in a lot of contexts in sciences. Sometimes we use different models based on the scale of what we look into. In Solid State Physics, a lot of succesful models accurately predict the observations without relying on quantum states of atoms or molecules. Trying to use those would be theoretically more accurate, but it is most of the time beyond our available processing tower. The "higher scale" model is far faster and not noticeable less precise.

Some scientists even say that this is what we should do. I picked the example of Solid State Physics because I read an article about it where that is exactly what the authors wrote. Their model works great, doesn't use quantum mechanics, so don't bother with them until you have to.
And some consider it even a possibility that this is how the "science" in the end will work out - there are different models for different scales or contexts. For certain situations, a model fundamentally (not just because we lack brain power) doesn't work and we need a different one. The first time I read about this was when reading on the Grand Unifying Theory, where people noticed that there is still no testable theory that unifies Relativity Theory and Quantum Mechanics - it's possible we need to keep those seperated, describe large scale events with RT, small scale events with QM, and maybe we need a third one that only works where the scales "meet" (The Big Bang, Black Holes). Of course, that's still up to debate. It doesn't change that models can be useful depending on context or scale.


In RPGs, our own brain is usually the processing power. So we should look to use models that work reasonably fast with our brain without losing too much precision.
One scale in D&D is level. Yes, you can pit level 20 heroes against CR 1 or Level 1 or HD 1 monsters. But you can also try to use a different model for them that's easier to use. Minions are such a model.

The game rules are not the physics of the game world. They are an abstract model of it.

Now people could say that switching to the Minion model is too imprecise for their taste. But then, they don't have to use the model. If they think that using level 1/CR1/1HD monsters against 20th level PCs gives them better results, they can do so. They can use Minions to model something different (for example, unique creatures that are inherently "weak" on some level - Decrepit Skeletons or Lich Vestiges, but never Level 10 Kobold Minions). Or just not at all.
 

There's another reason for them. Minions are a class of opponent that decouple attack and defense values from hit points. Meaning that they can provide a reasonable degree of challenge to a party without too much additional bookkeeping (seeing as they have 1 HP, effectively).

In previous editions, this class of opponent didn't exist. If a creature could hurt a mid-to-high level party, then it could automatically take a more-or-less proportional amount of hurt in return (and thus requiring more accounting of said units of hurt).

The need to reduce bookeeping is a desirable goal, but I think that reason is at the lowest end of a list of reasons for minions. The main explicitly listed reason what to provide something the players can carve through like butter without allowing the normal rules to get in the way. IMO, the unlisted reason (and the real one, I believe as a designer) is that in 4e there is a goal of multiple opponents per encounter. Minions provide "bodies" for powers and movement dynamics, while offering little threat in return.

The reality in an RPG is ultimately the backdrop for telling stories with and about the PC's. Most, if not all, role-playing is essentially of this type.

Of course. The question is always in what manner are those stories unfolded and do the mechanics of the game support or detract from the various ways of unfolding.

Can we have a moratorium on invoking Heisenberg, please? Pretty please??

Whatchu talkin 'bout Willis? :)

joe b.
 

re: Minions as a concept

I'm somewhat surprised at the resistance of the minion concept. I mean, isnt D&D supposed to simulate (heh, there's that word again) fantasy movies and books?

And the minion concept is a basic trope of said genre. Did people not think it was well, a failing, of D&D nt to be able to model one of those most common tropes in fantasy fiction?

I always thought the designers were thinking along the following lines.

Designer 1: "Hey, you know what would be cool? Doing that scene in the Conan movies where he takes out the guards with one slash"

Designer 2: "Well, we have kobolds..but then again, once you hit a certain level, kobolds don't remain a threat"

Designer 1: "Yeah, we need something that individually is a threat to the target but goes down easily"

Poof the minion concept.

And I repeat again...The minion concept makes more sense than the rest of the system. Usuaully, when you stab a human with 2 feet of steel, they GO DOWN.

Minions as a cncept aren't a genre-breaking or audience-disbelief thing. It's the fact that the HERO can take so many shots which is what more harder to swallow.

As an aside, remember, pre 4e's actual release, there were strong hints that minions HAD more than 1 hp (remember the vampire minions from the mini-game?) but realizing that this has to be handled by a DM, they went with the 1 hp.
 

By RAW, a Kobold Minion is always a Kobold Minion, and a Kobold Skirmisher is always a Kobold Skirmisher.

So those rampaging kobold minions can be taken out with a stick or a rock from farmer Bob, or from tripping and falling. What happened to being minions only when facing the PC's? A kid can take out a Balor minion on a natural 20.:p
 

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