Converting "Real World" Animals and Vermin

[Shade]

Int 2 it is.

Your thoughts on "poor swimmer", Chief Justice Demiurge?

 

[demiurge1138]

On the whole "chimp swimming" issue, I've heard conflicting information. I've seen it written that chimpanzees avoid the water overall and tend to panic if made to swim... but I've also seen a chimpanzee swimming and wading. So it sounds like chimps are like humans. If they don't learn to swim, they can't. If we wanted to handle it at all, we could do, say...

Poor Swimmer (Ex): Unlike many animals, chimpanzees cannot swim instinctively, and cannot make Swim checks with a DC higher than 10 untrained. Swim is not a class skill for chimpanzees.

 

[Cleon]

1d2 is way too low damage for a Medium creature's slam attacks. I boosted them to 1d4.

I just left in the 1d2 the dungeon conversion used. If I remember correctly, that's the same damage as a 2nd edition AD&D unarmed strike, which by analogy would argue for chimps doing 1d3 damage with their fists.

Further, on behalf of the defence may I argue that a chimp's hands, while large and much more powerful than a human's, are just as soft-skinned and blunt-nailed, which could justify them doing non-lethal damage unarmed strikes instead of slams.

 

[Cleon]

The problem with the Int of 6 is this... it's an animal. Animals in D&D are defined by their Int scores of 1 or 2. I know that Int 6 is probably right for a chimpanzee (and I'd also recommend it for dolphins, whales and other great apes, and slot ravens and octopodes in at 4 or so)... but we're still operating under the scope of 3.5, which sets a very clear precedent.

Man, I feel like I'm on the Supreme Court here.

Well since by you're own admission an Intelligence of 6 is "probably right" for my client, I propose that the noble chimp be hereby promoted to a Humanoid, with all the legal protections that entails.

That "animals must have Int 1 or 2" is one of the sillier bits of 3.5. Some of the Type restrictions seem very arbitrary, and can make it hard to fit a creatures to the "right" Type.

 

[Cleon]

On the whole "chimp swimming" issue, I've heard conflicting information. I've seen it written that chimpanzees avoid the water overall and tend to panic if made to swim... but I've also seen a chimpanzee swimming and wading. So it sounds like chimps are like humans. If they don't learn to swim, they can't. If we wanted to handle it at all, we could do, say...

Poor Swimmer (Ex): Unlike many animals, chimpanzees cannot swim instinctively, and cannot make Swim checks with a DC higher than 10 untrained. Swim is not a class skill for chimpanzees.

That looks a good solution. It's certainly possible for a chimp to splash about in water, though they likely too stocky and dense to be any good at swimming. I'd give them a racial penalty to Swim checks, since otherwise their high strength would give them a better default Swim modifier (+5) than most humans. A -4 penalty to make it Swim +1?

 

[Cleon]

I'd go for Strength 20. There hasn't been much study of how strong chimps are, but the little there have been showed them to be at least four times stronger than a human. Since a +10 Strength score can carry 4 times as much weight, that suggests a strength of 20+.

Come to think of it, the SRD Ape's ability scores look pretty close:

Str 21, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7

Since it's a size smaller we could drop the Con to 12. The intelligence needs to be increased a bit - how about Int 6, the middle of AD&D Low Intelligence range of Int 5-7?

Str 21, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 7

*SNIP*

I'm having second thoughts about the Strength 21.

There's conflicting information about chimpanzee strength. A lot of the sources I came across quoted 4-8 times stronger than a human, which works out at Str 20-25 (assuming the human in question is Str 10). However these may be anecdotal, exaggerated or based on old zoo experiments that included an upward bias (since they basically measured arm strength, and chimps have proportionally much more upper body strength than a human, so they're total body Strength will not be that high).

There's a thread on rpg.net were the subject of realistic halfling strength came up, and some contributors quoted lower estimates of chimp strength of more recent provenance, giving them twice or three times human Strength (which translates as Str 15-18 in human terms).

I'm now tempted to split the difference and give them Strength 19.

Assuming a typical wild Chimp has a non-elite ability array it could put its 13 in Strength and add a +6 racial bonus, (and +6 Str is about 2.3 times stronger in terms of carrying capacity, so it's still about twice as strong as a human).

As an added bonus, if a Small ape has a Strength of 15 (as in the Menace Manual version of a chimp), then simply Advancing it to Medium gives it Str 19.

What do you guys think?

 

[Shade]

That works for me.

The "ape" in the SRD is supposed to be a more aggressive gorilla, and I have a hard time imagining a chimp as strong as a gorilla. Of course, I'm no expert on apes.

 

[freyar]

Str 19 is ok by me, but I don't think we should use the non-elite array. Only chimps with NPC classes get to use that.

The swimming bit is fine, but I don't see why chimps with character classes wouldn't get to take Swim as a class skill. Since we're presumably leaving Swim off the skills list, it's automatically not a class skill for chimps with only racial HD. And then the bit about needing training makes it unnecessary to give them a racial penalty, don't you think?

 

[Cleon]

That works for me.

The "ape" in the SRD is supposed to be a more aggressive gorilla, and I have a hard time imagining a chimp as strong as a gorilla. Of course, I'm no expert on apes.

Well going by the description the SRD 'Ape' seems more like the AD&D giant carnivorous ape. I also think it's under-strengthened for a gorilla-like brute.

When we get on to the big ape I'd just apply the normal +8 Str for advancing from Medium to Large onto the chimp's Str 19, to get a gorilla with Str 27.

What about the idea of making it Humanoid to justify its Int 6? I wasn't entirely joking. Compared some of 3rd ed's creatures that are typed as Humanoid, a chimpanzee is positively mundane.

They are our closest living relatives, you know.

EDIT: Oh, and shouldn't this thread be closed and restarted as "Converting "Real World" Animals and Vermin, Part 2", since we're well over a thousand posts.

 

[Shade]

Well going by the description the SRD 'Ape' seems more like the AD&D giant carnivorous ape. I also think it's under-strengthened for a gorilla-like brute.

When we get on to the big ape I'd just apply the normal +8 Str for advancing from Medium to Large onto the chimp's Str 19, to get a gorilla with Str 27.

While your reasoning makes sense, it also creates all kinds of havoc with the Str 22 dire ape!

What about the idea of making it Humanoid to justify its Int 6? I wasn't entirely joking. Compared some of 3rd ed's creatures that are typed as Humanoid, a chimpanzee is positively mundane.

They are our closest living relatives, you know.

I'm definitely not a fan of making it humanoid!

EDIT: Oh, and shouldn't this thread be closed and restarted as "Converting "Real World" Animals and Vermin, Part 2", since we're well over a thousand posts.

Indeed, although we technically weren't over 1,000 posts when we started this conversion.

I'll definitely close it after this one, though.