Gaming Generation Gap

[Mercutio01]

As others have said, the same stylizations you claim to be anime-only have appeared in a LOT of western stuff.

Whoa there horsey. No one said "anime only." I pointed the standard characteristics that mark "anime" as different from "western." I didn't say there was no blurring. Clearly there is. However, you simply cannot look at that picture of Goku or a picture of Yu-Gi-Oh or Pokemon or, hell, Ninja Scroll and not recognize that the majority of characters have grossly disproportionate noses and mouths to the sizes of their eyes and the rest of their faces. Indeed, in "How to Draw Manga" types of books one of the most common style tricks is exactly that--eyes start lower on the cranium and are bigger than normal, noses are understated or sometimes non-existent, and mouths are often-times simple lines without lips, and usually leave little room for a defined chin structure. I say this as I have one "How to Draw Manga" book sitting open on my computer desk.

You can say Avatar was "anime," but it wasn't.

True, but it was "anime-inspired" as even the creators of the show have indicated. Indeed, that was the entire point behind the animation style--to capture that market-share that American animation studios were losing to the Japanese. Also, if you picked one random guy on the street and showed him 10 pictures, 5 "anime" and 5 "western" but one of the "western"s was Avatar and asked him how many "anime" and how many "American" cartoons were there, I'm willing to bet, more often than not, you would get answers of "6" and "4" respectively.

Anime isn't a genre.

Someone noted that above, but I highly recommend you actually walk into a book store or comic book store and actually look around. Invariably*, at least where I shop, all of the "anime" books will be on a shelf that says "anime/manga" and are separated from the other "graphic novels." This is also true of movie stores like Best Buy.



*No, I'm not going to further qualify "invariably" because it has been completely invariable to me. I have never shopped at any store in my 30 years that sold anime/mangas where the films/books were not shelved in a specific "anime" section.

 

[Doug McCrae]

mechanics for keeping your love a tightly-held secret and... GM advice for innuendo and symbolic lilly placement

Roll on 5e.

 

[Achan hiArusa]

There is an old GURPS meta-game where you pick three books (beside the main rulebook, okay now two main rulebooks) and you run it as a game:

Final Fantasy VII: Fantasy, Martial Arts, and Cyberpunk
Final Fantasy VIII: Fantasy, Magic, Ultratech
Final Fantasy IX: Fantasy, Steampunk, Steamtech
Final Fantasy X: Fantasy, Atomic Horror, Ultratech
Final Fantasy XII: Fantasy, Magic, Technomancer

Or that's the best I can think of off the top of my head. If d20 is not doing it for you, try 3d6.

 

[Achan hiArusa]

Someone noted that above, but I highly recommend you actually walk into a book store or comic book store and actually look around. Invariably*, at least where I shop, all of the "anime" books will be on a shelf that says "anime/manga" and are separated from the other "graphic novels." This is also true of movie stores like Best Buy.

Oh, you mean the same bookstores that put Quantum Mechanics in the mathematics section or put the "Tao of Physics" in with serious physics textbooks. Really.

How much does Neil Gaiman really share with Rob Lefield in terms of the type of stories that he tells. Not a whole lot, but both of them are in "comic books."

Anime is a medium, just like live action films are a medium, just like comics are a medium.

 

[TwinBahamut]

I'd say what sets manga and anime apart from their Western counterparts (and note that I'm including manga-influenced comics such as manhwa and "pseudo manga" in this) are the distinct visual characteristics; not just big eyes and small mouths, for example, but also the visual language they use (such as twinkling eyes, or strong emotion often portrayed in a humourous and stylized fashion -- or the clothes of the protagonist may convey a certain visual message about him/her that an "unenlightened" reader/watcher completely misses).

This really is much more of a manga thing than anything else... You see it a lot in manga and anime adaptations of a manga series, but it is very rare in most anime series that are not based in manga. It is indeed quite common, but it is not universal.

Also, I think something can be said about there being some equivalents to these visual characteristics in western animation, though they tend to take on different forms...

And I have no idea what you are going on about with the clothes thing. Clothes say a lot about characters in every from of entertainment, even purely text-based mediums. They don't mean anything more in manga or anime than they do on the street in the real world.

Whoa there horsey. No one said "anime only." I pointed the standard characteristics that mark "anime" as different from "western." I didn't say there was no blurring. Clearly there is. However, you simply cannot look at that picture of Goku or a picture of Yu-Gi-Oh or Pokemon or, hell, Ninja Scroll and not recognize that the majority of characters have grossly disproportionate noses and mouths to the sizes of their eyes and the rest of their faces. Indeed, in "How to Draw Manga" types of books one of the most common style tricks is exactly that--eyes start lower on the cranium and are bigger than normal, noses are understated or sometimes non-existent, and mouths are often-times simple lines without lips, and usually leave little room for a defined chin structure. I say this as I have one "How to Draw Manga" book sitting open on my computer desk.

You know, I really don't like the assumption (or implication, or whatever you want to call it) in this post that "western" = "realistic" and "anime" = "disproportionate". You are basically arguing that anime is different from western animation based on the idea that anime has stylistic elements. This argument only makes any sense if you take the idea that western animation doesn't have stylized elements as a given.

I basically agree that you can tell "anime-styled" forms of art and animation from "western" art and animation, but I think your arguments for doing so and your own perception of the differences are really flawed.

Actually, I think I will just say my thoughts outright right now. I think, as a whole, anime art tends to be more realistic than western art on average, and that generally western art tends to use more exaggerated and disproportionate features than anime art. People notice the difference between anime art and western art not because the eyes of characters are bigger in anime, but because everything else looks more normal, making the one remaining disproportion stand out a bit more.

Beyond the major points, though, I think your arguments are flawed simply because some of your "facts" are simply wrong. You talk about subdued noses, but some of the most famous characters in anime have noses almost as large as the rest of their heads. Look at the two main scientists from the manga/anime classic Astro Boy if you want to see a good example of that (and this is a story from Osamu Tezuka, the man known as the "Father of Anime" and "God of Manga" whose style has pretty much defined all of anime-style art since).

As for the "big eyes" thing, well, this guy is a fairly important and widely recognized anime character, but I would hardly say that he has big eyes...

 

[Hussar]

/snip

Anime isn't a genre.

That's why if I ever hear someone say "That's too anime" regarding game mechanics, I can safetly ignore them as being ignorant and full of it. It's the equivilant of opening the 4e PHB, looking at the elf, and going "Oh god that's just too literature for me." Imagine how bizarro that would sound. "That's just too literature for me." You'd say...well, possibly some rather impolite things. But you'd be THINKING "How can something be too literature? Literature isn't a genre! It's a medium! ANYTHING can be in literature!" How many people here sigh and palm -> face when they hear someone say "I hate books?"

PC, you are absolutely right. 100% completely and utterly right.

And it still doesn't matter. Unfortunately.

When I did that Find the Anime challenge thread a while back (man, that's a couple of years ago now), some people decided that anime=anything that anime equalled anything with even the slightest bit of Japanese artistic influence. In other words, pretty much any fantasy image from the last ten or fifteen years.

The term does have a very specific meaning, but, as you rightly point out, that's not what it's being used for. It's what makes these discussions so incredibly difficult because the definitions shift like quicksand and as soon as you start actually using the proper definition of the word, you get labeled a grammar nazi.

See, I'd look at those pics you posted a ways back and call them anime as well. At least close enough for me. But, by and large, I refuse to use the term anime as a descriptor because I know that its meaning is so muddled and confused and carries so many connotations, that it's pretty much meaningless.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

I feel the need to point out that the "god of manga" and forefather of Japanese animation was influenced by the exaggerated features of the works of the quite western Walt Disney.

 

[Oni]

Your first reason I can broadly agree with. Marketing agrees with you there, too. People will self-select based on their own aesthetic tastes, and most American males 18-24 probably won't pick up a bright pink PHB done with illos in the style of a gay-boy romance manga with lillies splayed all over the tables and charts. Likewise, kids these days probably won't pick up anything with big hair, throbbing muscles, chainmail bikinis, and multi-eyed piles of slime. It's not modern, current, or interesting.

That's about art direction and, well, marketing, though, not so much about game design. Put fast cars, bikini models, and explosions on the cover of a Parcheesi set, and you'll sell at least a few.

Yes, but who will you sell them to? Most likely someone who interested in fast cars, bikini models, and explosions. Now Parcheesi is really about the mechanics of the game, I submit that is not entirely the case in regards to rpgs. That rpgs are more about creating an experience, and in this case that experience is more likely to include fast cars, bikini models, and explosions than not because that was part of the motivating factor in its purchase.

Your second reason is a little shakier, because "tone of the game" is highly imprecise. Parcheesi is parcheesi no matter how you dress it up; Star Wars Monopoly is still Monopoly, and still about currency management, not about killing Darth Vader. Replacing the top hat with a little metal Chewbacca doesn't change the fundamental rules or feel of the game, though it might change the banter at the table around the game ("My hotel on Hoth is an igloo!"). Drawing every character as if it were from a boy-love manga wouldn't change the fact that dwarves are tough and that eladrin can teleport. Though the audience might be surprised to find no mechanics for keeping your love a tightly-held secret and no GM advice for innuendo and symbolic lilly placement, even drawn in this style, 4e D&D would still be a game about beating up monsters on a minis field. It might attract a different audience (and thus evolve in another direction as fans demand different things), but the "tone," as it were, wouldn't change.

I would say my second reason is harder to quantify perhaps, but I do not believe it is entirely without merit. I'm not sure your examples are very strong ones, because in such games the mechanics are the point of the game, where in a rpg the mechanics are a means to an end, a foundation to build something beyond the framework for resolution. While I certainly agree that the mechanics used will have an impact on play and push it in certain directions, the expectations of the players of the nature of the game will also inform how they approach it. If the artwork is dark and gritty and horror based the players will respond in kind, because that is expectation of play and the tone that has been set. If the artwork is light and heroic it basically give the player permission to respond in kind. Now depending how far the mechanics are from supporting the presented tone will strongly influence if that tone has legs or not, but I strongly feel that the initial presentation will influence how the game is attempted to be played and thus its effects will be felt at the table.

 

[mmadsen]

I'm not sure what this tangent about anime/manga is adding to our understanding of the gaming generation gap, but I'll bite.

I feel the need to point out that the "god of manga" and forefather of Japanese animation was influenced by the exaggerated features of the works of the quite western Walt Disney.

For ages, American comics and cartoons featured two distinct styles, the funny animal style of Disney, Warner Bros., etc., and a more representational style, as in Dick Tracy, Prince Valiant, Superman, etc.

The well-known, if fuzzily defined anime/manga style strikes many people as an odd mix of cartoony and realistic: representational landscapes and backgrounds -- often drawn in great detail -- and representational, if idealized physiques, mixed with "cartoony" faces -- the infamous big eyes and small mouth.

 

[Primal]

This really is much more of a manga thing than anything else... You see it a lot in manga and anime adaptations of a manga series, but it is very rare in most anime series that are not based in manga. It is indeed quite common, but it is not universal.

Also, I think something can be said about there being some equivalents to these visual characteristics in western animation, though they tend to take on different forms...

And I have no idea what you are going on about with the clothes thing. Clothes say a lot about characters in every from of entertainment, even purely text-based mediums. They don't mean anything more in manga or anime than they do on the street in the real world.

Well, I *think* I saw the clothes thing mentioned in one of the manga guides by Christopher Hart... I may be misremembering, though. Another funny thing... if I remember correctly, bleeding noses imply/refer to sex.