SpC: Combust Spell... broken? Any fixes?
- Thread starter Darklone
- Start date
Ahnehnois
First Post
I think it's powerful only in the sense that there are few good 2nd level damage spells.
Combust is touch range, 1d8/level (no save), plus a flat DC 15 ref save to avoid catching on fire for 1d6/round thereafter.
The 3rd level benchmark, fireball, is 1d6/level, ref half, in an area at long range. Clearly much better overall, though inferior if there's only one enemy and he's right next to you.
The 2nd level benchmark is Melf's Acid Arrow: 2d4 + 1d4/3 levels continuing damage. Clearly worse, though it works at range. Or perhaps Flaming Sphere, 2d6/round for 1 round/level, ref negates each round, also inferior given that a move action is needed to direct the sphere and many enemies will make the ref save.
I would suggest adding a save to reduce the initial damage for Combust (fort/ref half?), but really, most mages will find a touch range spell too dangerous to use, even with the large payoff.
Combust is touch range, 1d8/level (no save), plus a flat DC 15 ref save to avoid catching on fire for 1d6/round thereafter.
The 3rd level benchmark, fireball, is 1d6/level, ref half, in an area at long range. Clearly much better overall, though inferior if there's only one enemy and he's right next to you.
The 2nd level benchmark is Melf's Acid Arrow: 2d4 + 1d4/3 levels continuing damage. Clearly worse, though it works at range. Or perhaps Flaming Sphere, 2d6/round for 1 round/level, ref negates each round, also inferior given that a move action is needed to direct the sphere and many enemies will make the ref save.
I would suggest adding a save to reduce the initial damage for Combust (fort/ref half?), but really, most mages will find a touch range spell too dangerous to use, even with the large payoff.
What Ahnehnois said makes sense. You can also compare it with Shocking Grasp, a first level spell. That is also a touch spell, which does 1d6/level damage without a save. For the extra level of spell, you gain
The damage boost is about 28%. Empower would increase the level of the spell by +2 and give a 50% boost in damage. This gives about half the boost of empower for half the spell level increase (but without the feat cost).
At third level, a melee touch attack from a wizard is far from automatic; it's probably about +1 against an AC of 9-15. The catch on fire effect will increase the average damage, but it's probably balanced by the additional times that you hit with the shocking grasp attack. If the target does catch on fire, they can attempt a new save every round.
In all, it seems about right. At most, I'd change it to d6 damage, on the theory that a level N+1 spell often does what a similar, level N spell does with a secondary effect. At most, I'd call it slightly overpowered.
- +1 damage/level on average (3.5 -> 4.5)
- The possibility of 1d6 damage/round for up to 1d6 rounds
The damage boost is about 28%. Empower would increase the level of the spell by +2 and give a 50% boost in damage. This gives about half the boost of empower for half the spell level increase (but without the feat cost).
At third level, a melee touch attack from a wizard is far from automatic; it's probably about +1 against an AC of 9-15. The catch on fire effect will increase the average damage, but it's probably balanced by the additional times that you hit with the shocking grasp attack. If the target does catch on fire, they can attempt a new save every round.
In all, it seems about right. At most, I'd change it to d6 damage, on the theory that a level N+1 spell often does what a similar, level N spell does with a secondary effect. At most, I'd call it slightly overpowered.
StreamOfTheSky
Adventurer
Why not use scorching ray as the benchmark? It's a level 2 touch attack fire spell, only ranged, with up to 3 shots, and no extra save (though that part of combust is rather inconsequential, IMO).
Sorching Ray: Caps at CL 11 for 12d6 (avg. 42) fire damage.
Combust: Caps at CL 10 for 10d8 (avg. 45) fire damage.
Combust has the advantage of a little more damage, and all in one shot, making it better at overcoming fire resistance. Also, the catch on fire effect. Scorching Ray is ranged (a big advantage, generally) and has several shots (less chance of completely missing and doing no damage due to a nat 1; ability to multitarget).
Now, granted, combust tends to be better damage from levels 3-10 all the way, but I don't think it's any better than Scorching ray, or not that much better.
Sorching Ray: Caps at CL 11 for 12d6 (avg. 42) fire damage.
Combust: Caps at CL 10 for 10d8 (avg. 45) fire damage.
Combust has the advantage of a little more damage, and all in one shot, making it better at overcoming fire resistance. Also, the catch on fire effect. Scorching Ray is ranged (a big advantage, generally) and has several shots (less chance of completely missing and doing no damage due to a nat 1; ability to multitarget).
Now, granted, combust tends to be better damage from levels 3-10 all the way, but I don't think it's any better than Scorching ray, or not that much better.
Shin Okada
Explorer
Combust never have been the favorite sor/wiz 2nd-level spell in my playgroup. Most damage dealing mages prefer Scorching Ray (ranged-touch no save 4d6 fire damage at L3, 2 rays at 7th, 3 rays at 11th) over Combust. Unless you are a fighter-mage type, going toe to toe with an opponent is not a good idea, especially at lower level.
As a touch spell, Combust is only slightly better than 1st-level shocking grasp which deals 1d6 per level (up to 5d6) as most 3.5e combats end within 2-3 rounds. When the difference become significant (caster level 6+?), a mage should spend a round to do something better.
And as a 2nd-level spell, there always be that almost all-mighty Glitterdust.
As a touch spell, Combust is only slightly better than 1st-level shocking grasp which deals 1d6 per level (up to 5d6) as most 3.5e combats end within 2-3 rounds. When the difference become significant (caster level 6+?), a mage should spend a round to do something better.
And as a 2nd-level spell, there always be that almost all-mighty Glitterdust.
frankthedm
First Post
Change it to deal 5 damage per level rather than 1d8. this way the metamagic feats don't break it.
ElectricDragon
Explorer
The spell becomes really dangerous when combined with Spectral Hand: Medium Range and +2 bonus to attack rolls. The time cost of casting an extra spell is really worth it to take out a spellcaster or archer for a few rounds. Plus, if the caster tends to memorize several different (or even the same) touch range spells; this becomes an even better tactic.
Ciao,
Dave
Ciao,
Dave
Falling Icicle
Adventurer
Yes, but then you're expending two spell slots (and two turns) to be able to attack at range. Compare this to casting two scorching rays.
ElectricDragon
Explorer
But on turn three, the Spectral Hand starts to kick in with Bestow Curse, Contagion, and Vampiric Touch, all at range. It can also be used to deliver beneficial spells to the tank without putting yourself at risk (various protection spells [good, evil, arrows, etc.], Spider Climb, Stoneskin, etc.). That is why it is worth a two round casting time. Spectral Hand lasts for caster level # of minutes; and it could be cast before the room is entered and voila, round one Combust on a spellcaster. And if the room is empty; with a little hurrying, it will last for the next room, too.
Add the Extend Spell feat for a one level cost and Spectral Hand lasts for a minimum of 100 rounds (10 minutes), 12 minutes for sorcerers.
Or you could Scorching Ray on round one and round two...
Players in my game liked Spectral Hand so much that they developed a higher level version that worked with higher level spells and included a self-destruct mechanism to blow it up in the enemy's face for a little extra bang when the touch spells ran out//And another higher level version that included its own touch attack for minor damage (like a claw attack) for the same situation.
Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Magic Missile, and Scorching Ray are good spells, but some players like to try out different things rather than just burn up the enemy's hp: set them on fire, give them a disease, steal their hp to heal yourself, suck away their ability points, give them a penalty to most rolls, 50/50 do no action, etc.
Without Spectral Hand, touch spells are only really good for a tank (who usually has something better to do than cast a spell). Clerics, with their armor and bigger Hit Dice, can use touch spells in melee, but most that I have seen don't.
Ciao,
Dave
Add the Extend Spell feat for a one level cost and Spectral Hand lasts for a minimum of 100 rounds (10 minutes), 12 minutes for sorcerers.
Or you could Scorching Ray on round one and round two...
Players in my game liked Spectral Hand so much that they developed a higher level version that worked with higher level spells and included a self-destruct mechanism to blow it up in the enemy's face for a little extra bang when the touch spells ran out//And another higher level version that included its own touch attack for minor damage (like a claw attack) for the same situation.
Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Magic Missile, and Scorching Ray are good spells, but some players like to try out different things rather than just burn up the enemy's hp: set them on fire, give them a disease, steal their hp to heal yourself, suck away their ability points, give them a penalty to most rolls, 50/50 do no action, etc.
Without Spectral Hand, touch spells are only really good for a tank (who usually has something better to do than cast a spell). Clerics, with their armor and bigger Hit Dice, can use touch spells in melee, but most that I have seen don't.
Ciao,
Dave
