Longspear w/Shield

[weem]

Hey all, I need some help working something into the rules...

I am about to start my next campaign and have told the players I would work with them to help them have something unique about their characters that may or may not fit within the rules - in other words, I am willing to bend the rules a little to allow them to have a unique aspect that they think would be really fun.

I have a player who will be playing a defender (pally or fighter, still not sure) and he wants to use a Long Spear (2-hander by the rules) with a Shield - Spartan-like.

Basically, this breaks the rules by allowing a 2 handed weapon to be used in one.

He brings up the feat in 3e Monkey Grip - without books in front of me I vaguely remember it.

He also mentioned that AV2 has something about Swordmage's and reach (he heard), so that might help figure something out as well.

Anyway, the question to you is - assuming you were going to allow this, how would you handle it?

Thanks!

 

[Mithreinmaethor]

The long spear also has reach. Which is why you can not wield it 1 handed.

If he wants spear and shield he can use a spear or a tratnyr. Thats the only choice that he has.

 

[weem]

The long spear also has reach. Which is why you can not wield it 1 handed.

Well, the reach is why he wants it, otherwise you are right, he could have gone with a number of other options.

Do you see anything terribly wrong with allowing reach on a 1 handed weapon? I don't mean that as a loaded question either, I'm just not sure of the implications as far as breaking things.

One thing to clarify, this would be the one and only character in the game allowed reach with a 1 hander, and it would only be with this specific weapon (a longspear) so it's not like this will set a precedence and open up everything to everyone. Also, he is the defender in the group, and the rest are ranged (bowRanger, Artificer, and Invoker) so allowing him a a bit extra like this might be good.

 

[Dr_Sage]

Anyway, the question to you is - assuming you were going to allow this, how would you handle it?

Thanks!

Well assuming you willl allow it anyway Its simple: he could use a light shield with no benefit (just flavor), while holding the reach weapon.

Once he (spartan style) grabbed a sword, he could start benefiting from the shield instantly.

As the poster above commented: I would add that spartan-like spears would have no reach in DnD, specially compared to Roman Pikes.

If he is bugged by the fact that a spear is a simple weapon just rouse rule and get the stats from another martial weapon, like the longsword or the battleaxe.

Random comment: 3ed monkey Grip was one of the many cheesy stuff back there, I would NOT recommend bringing 3ed/4ed "hybrid concepts" to your table.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Mithreinmaethor]

Well, the reach is why he wants it, otherwise you are right, he could have gone with a number of other options.

Do you see anything terribly wrong with allowing reach on a 1 handed weapon? I don't mean that as a loaded question either, I'm just not sure of the implications as far as breaking things.

One thing to clarify, this would be the one and only character in the game allowed reach with a 1 hander, and it would only be with this specific weapon (a longspear) so it's not like this will set a precedence and open up everything to everyone. Also, he is the defender in the group, and the rest are ranged (bowRanger, Artificer, and Invoker) so allowing him a a bit extra like this might be good.

He has probably read the optimization threads and knows about polearm gamble and all of the reach weapon craziness.

As is stated in the response above the Spartan spear did not have reach and is probably damage wise more like the tratnyr but is simply a spear.

 

[weem]

@Dr_Sage

If he is bugged by the fact that a spear is a simple weapon just rouse rule and get the stats from another martial weapon, like the longsword or the battleaxe.

That's a good idea, thanks


@Mithreinmaethor

He has probably read the optimization threads and knows about polearm gamble and all of the reach weapon craziness.

Hmmm... sounds like him indeed - it would not surprise me.

 

[Mithreinmaethor]

@Dr_Sage


That's a good idea, thanks


@Mithreinmaethor


Hmmm... sounds like him indeed - it would not surprise me.

He is just trying to be a cheese weasel. Dont let him be. It will cause you and the other players headaches as the game progresses.

 

[Stuntman]

Here's how you use a spear and shield and have reach: Use a spear one handed and a shield and use the Lunging Strike power.

Here's another way: Also use Advance Lunge power. It doesn't give you reach, but allows you to shift 2 squares before the attack or one before and one after the attack. It does allow you to attack from 2 squares away without needing a reach weapon and without burning a move action. It simulates reach for spear users.

The above is the best way to do it in 4E to give him that flavour of spear and shield and allow a little bit of reach-like abilities. Anything that automatically gives him reach for everything while using a shield is unbalanced.

In general, the cost of getting reach is losing use of a shield. For a defender, this means -2 AC for reach. If you make a feat like Monkey Grip from 3E, you are essentially giving this character a +2 AC for a feat. If you look at all of the armour and shield feats, all except the leather armour feat pretty much only gives you a +1 AC for the cost of a feat. The Leather Armour Proficiency is the exception and it probably the most attractive armour proficiency feat. A Monkey Grip feat would be one of the best feats in the game if you were to allow it in 4E. I highly recommend you not create a feat like Monkey Grip in 4E. As one of the posters said, Monkey Grip has been exploited by optimisers in 3E to no end and would be unbalanced in 4E.

 

[spayne]

Do you see anything terribly wrong with allowing reach on a 1 handed weapon? I don't mean that as a loaded question either, I'm just not sure of the implications as far as breaking things.

The Whip is a 1-handed reach weapon, so it is not necessarily a broken thing.

A 1-handed longspear is a lot better though since it does 1d10 damage, does not cost a feat to become proficient, and counts for spear and polearm feats/powers/etc.

Maybe you could make a different weapon that is a 1-handed reach spear.

1-handed reach spear
superior 1-handed melee weapon
proficient: +2
damage: 1d6
group: spear (not polearm)
properties: reach

 

[weem]

The Whip is a 1-handed reach weapon, so it is not necessarily a broken thing.

A 1-handed longspear is a lot better though since it does 1d10 damage, does not cost a feat to become proficient, and counts for spear and polearm feats/powers/etc.

Maybe you could make a different weapon that is a 1-handed reach spear.

1-handed reach spear
superior 1-handed melee weapon
proficient: +2
damage: 1d6
group: spear (not polearm)
properties: reach

Interesting idea, thanks!


Mith said...

He is just trying to be a cheese weasel. Dont let him be. It will cause you and the other players headaches as the game progresses.

Well, like I said, "sounds like him indeed - it would not surprise me." regarding looking up optimizations - I can see him looking for the optimal build, but I'm not sure he is trying to break anything intentionally. But, I can see how there could be issues with it - he may or may not be aware of them, I don't know.