Optimising versus Roleplaying

[Thasmodious]

On a more serious note, for me, optimization isn't creating the most powerful character in a vacuum. If it was, all fighters, all wizards, etc., would all look exactly the same. Optimization is utilizing the ruleset to its fullest to bring your concept to life and make it a viable concept that is good at the game elements of the system.

I was far from an expert optimizer in 3e, but I had some friends who were very good at it, involved on the CO boards, it was a mini-game and a math problem to them. Many characters I made in 3e began with a fleshed out concept (as most of mine do) and then I hit these guys up for the best way to bring it to life mechanically.

The main problem with optimization for me is when one player ends up significantly more powerful than another.

Who's really to blame for that, though? The guy with solid rules knowledge who builds effective characters or the one who can't be bothered to make such an effort? Now, if one member of a group is a heavy optimizer and he doesn't help the others craft their characters because he wants to be the UberPC, then that guy's certainly a douche.

 

[Hussar]

Thas - yes and no. There's always the case for the sort of "accidental" optimization. Where you think X would be cool, and it is, but, a bit down the road, it suddenly becomes overpowering and dominating. It's not always intentional.

I would peg it to the game system where the difference between someone who tries to stretch the system to the limit can absolutely pwn the non-optimizer. In a better balanced ruleset, that doesn't happen.

 

[jaerdaph]

Emphasis mine. Not sure it works better.

I think it just needs to be re-branded:

"If you were half a man, you'd buy the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary."
"If I was half a man, I'd be in the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary!"

 

[Thasmodious]

Thas - yes and no. There's always the case for the sort of "accidental" optimization. Where you think X would be cool, and it is, but, a bit down the road, it suddenly becomes overpowering and dominating. It's not always intentional.

I would peg it to the game system where the difference between someone who tries to stretch the system to the limit can absolutely pwn the non-optimizer. In a better balanced ruleset, that doesn't happen.

Both points true. My group hit the accidental problem in a high level game we played in 3e. Player decided since we were starting high level a necromancer focused cleric of Nerull would be fun. He had a spell that raised the dead as shadows and kept 4 shadows around him at all times which he used to drain the str from anything we fought which was very cool, but also very powerful. Then later he began really utilizing the necromancy and raising armies of zombies, wights, skeletons, so he'd have 30 "henchman" to cover every round of combat. What was cool quickly became very overpowered (we were doing part of WLD at the time and would often just open a door, send in the undead army, and wait, saving all our spells and abilities for tougher fights). If he lost a bunch in the fight, he'd just raise new ones from the fresh corpses. That's a decent example of both accidentally overpowered and the fault of the system (even without the undead army his CODzilla and my warmage were so far ahead of the warblade and assassin in the group that it wasn't funny).

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Who's really to blame for that, though? The guy with solid rules knowledge who builds effective characters or the one who can't be bothered to make such an effort? Now, if one member of a group is a heavy optimizer and he doesn't help the others craft their characters because he wants to be the UberPC, then that guy's certainly a douche.

I agree. I optimize, and unless I'm busy or have grown to dislike the person, if another player wanted help with optimizingtheir character, I would. I want to be awesome, I don't feel the need to be at the expense of the others (good compared to them). That said, I don't go around offering my help or advice without being asked. I used to do that with good intentions, only to find it angered a lot of people.

 

[catsclaw227]

I thought the ultimate trump card is calling "straw man." ::rolls eyes::

Donald Trump has a new CCG coming out called Straw Man?